Not trying to hit your partner while working out

[Chuck Cory]

In keeping with the fact that I would like to like to see more discussion on this forum, here goes a new subject.

Pet Peeves
Working out with someone who does not throw their punch at you but either stops short or is punching to the side and clearly missing you. Before I put in my two cents, I would like to see some thoughts from other members on the board. I think most of you probably already know my opinion anyway.

Chuck

[usnken]

Weak punches are annoying and it sets the stage for weak reactions as well (as far as I am concerned).

Everytime Jason Wolfe teaches me a lesson he makes me throw the punch as hard/quickly as I can. In fact, he makes it clear what he wants by saying, "Punch me. Ill give you extra points if you actually land it."  So, I have incentive to throw a good one to earn some 'points' (whatever they are!). This is a good thing to say to someone just before a lesson. It gives them the right frame of mind.

Then again, I am only a yellow belt.

Ken

PS I still havent been able to land one. But one day he is going to get hurt.  :-)     

[Dave]

Man, nothing irritates me more. Im serious. Weak punches not only set the stage for weak reactions, but they totally change the workout!! If someone throws away from you or stops short, this simulates nothing. Well, maybe something, but its not a real fight. There are people I work out with that still do not throw on target. Or if they do throw on target, it has no form. What I mean is that there is no effort or they are just stepping and flinging an arm your way (boring).  Ken, I agree 50% with your statement on throwing a punch as quickly as you can. Sure, there is definetaly a time and place for that but you have to remember that the harder you throw at someone, the harder they will react and that is when someone can get hurt. With that said, I will share something that I have recently noticed. Ive noticed after working with white and yellow belts (any belt really, but especially white and yellow) that it is the responsibility of the black belt to work slow smooth and controlled. Right around the time I got my black I was working with a white belt and I was showing him how to block hard and throw a punch hard, yada yada yada. Well I would get on to him about not throwing hard and not throwing at me. So the harder this guy would throw a punch, the harder I would block him and take him down. I realized that despite the fact that I thought I was teaching him how to throw at me hard, THIS WAS UNCOMFORTABLE TO HIM to have me pound on him. So what happened is that as time went on, he was weary of throwing at me, or he would turn his head away from me when he would throw a punch or flinch hard when I would react or block because he was anticipating the hard blocks and fast movements of mine. We were both reacting in a non productive way. Now not only was this guy NOT throwing at me, (which was the original point) but now he was unwillingly and subconsiously flinching and turning away as he attacks for fear of being hit. You also have to remember that hard attacks=hard reactions, which= the occasional, yet accidental hit to the face. So this is why he was flinching, turning his head and CLOSING HIS DAMN EYES, which is a big NO NO. This is not an easy habit to break once it's started. So I realized what I was doing with this guy was wrong and had to slow down and show him (not tell him) a better way so that he reacted differently. I slowed my punches down, worked on cadence and reacted in a way that would build confidence in him. Just because I slowed my punches,(kicks or whatever) doesnt mean that they were unrealistic. I still threw a punh at him with the SAME FORM as I would have at full speed, but just slowed it down a bit. Now this guy could react without fear or intimidation and work on his technique.

So as you can see, I beleive there is a time and place for throwing as hard as you can, but not all the time. But as far as throwing on target and with some realism, this is something that has to happen ALL THE TIME.  I have been fortunate to have several very good workout partners over the years who commit every attack. And I feel I would not have progressed the way I have if it wasnt for them. Sometimes we will stay after class, when everyone leaves and pretty much simulate real fight scenerios, (as much as we can) and really throw hard at each other, put up a little resistance and roll around on the ground a bit. But like I said, this is uncomfortable to anyone so there is only so much one can or will take. This art was not made to practice full force or with resistance. If you feel you need to hit at each other hard, then get a mouthpeice, headgear, forearm pads ect. and go!

Man, Ive typed too much. Sorry. Ive got too much free time I guess. REmember, like I say. I am no expert whatsoever. Im just stating my opinion. Hope this helps out some. Chuck, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I know how you feel on this.

Peace out,
D

Oh, yeah and by the way. Those of you who have worked with quality masters like Chuck. You already know that it is not uncomfortable to work with these guys. YOu just feel them redirect, and manipulate your weight and balance while hitting all of their targets accurately and putting you where they want.It should NEVER be uncomfortable for you or your workout partner. It is my ultimate goal one day to work with anyone, any size, any age, shape. And be able to do any technique at any speed and have them feel everything I do but it not be uncomfortable or harsh or painfull to them unless I want it to be .

[Chuck Cory]

Ken to start with I feel proud that Jason makes you try to hit him with your punch. This is part of your training. Learning to punch with force when needed and to stop an attack against you as well. This says a lot for Jason's abilities, not wanting to have someone not try to hit him. I always hated it when someone was not trying to hit me. I felt I was not working out properly. Dave has some great points in his response and are worth addressing in a separate post.

Chuck

[Chuck Cory]

Dave great post. You brought out some very important points when working with a lower belt. We have to be careful because we can take their confidence away from them and all the work we did helping them grow can be lost in an instant. I know I have inadvertently done that.

Whenever I work out I expect a solid punch aimed at me not past me or stopping short. If I get one of these, I slap it down and say "try to hit me" Sometimes I have to slap it down 3 or 4 times before they get mad and decide to do their best at hitting me. I will temper my punches to the speed the partner is working out.
When you try to hit a person like you do on the street, several things happen.

First, the person receiving the punch is improving their eye speed and hand and eye cordination. This helps them to pick up a fast moving object and react to it without being afraid of it. As Dave mentioned, start out slow and have the lower belt get comfortable with that speed then slowly speed it up watching to see where their current limits are. With practice, these limits should get better as time goes on. Thus increasing their confidence and not making them afraid of the punch.

Second, the person throwing the punch is practicing to fight like they would on the street, by punching straight and at the intended target. I always taught students to punch through the head not to it. This will take into consideration any movement away from the punch by the opponent, should they see the punch coming. Use of blind side punching is encouraged, but used paying attention to your partners reactions. If they do not see the punch coming, you should stop the punch close to intended area and let them know it was there.

Third, It also helps the partner receiving the punch to work on making their blocks more efficient and blocking the nerve areas as desired.

Finely, have the lower belt tell you when he/she wants you to increase your speed of your punch. There will come a time when they ask and you have to tell them the truth, "I am trying to hit you as hard as I can" Then they know they are learning to protect themselves from a punching attack.

I have a lot more on this but I would like to see some more input first, I do not want to talk about things that everyone else might cover.

So far we have a great start on the new year guys.
Chuck

[furglasses]

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME A PHONE NUMBER OR GIVE ME CLASS INFORMATION ON SAN SOO....THANKS

[kfletcher]

Furglasses,
Chuck has told me, he has sent you some information on the classes twice. If there is a problem with the reception we will be happy to re-transmit it. Please give us the contact information you would like us to use. We'll be happy to put you in touch with the right people.
Thanks,
Kenneth

[furglasses]

yeah, I havent recieved anything.. so I guess the best way to contact me would be by phone if someone could. (615) 389-6333

[Justin]

Excellent topic.  All of Chuck's students will remember him saying, "No, try to hit me," and it is an important lesson to learn.  A lot of the  things already mentioned, like confidence, timing, balance, reactions, etc. come from being under the pressure of an opponent actually trying to hurt you.  There's no point in training any other way.  As the opponent you may think you're keeping your partner safe by not connecting, but if you don't try to land an attack you're actually building in false reactions that will fail him in the street.

This applies not only to head punches, but to all attacks we do.  I especially remember this being drilled into us during knife class - and the wooden practice knives hurt when they connect!  Imagine if you didn't train that way.  Someone trying to stab you in the street would be much more likely to harm you, and if you did get cut you'd be much less likely to react positively to the pain.

When I teach new students they never want to hit me - at first!  I just stand there, knowing they'll throw the punch and miss me.  This usually happens a few times or more.  Eventually they get agitated enough to have a real go, and that's when the learning can begin. 

It's not about speed, but intent.  Start relatively slowly, but try to strike through the target on your opponent.  For example, if you're aiming for the nose you should try to project your force through to the back of your opponent's head.  Start slowly but with commitment.  As you and your partner improve your skills you can speed up the attacks - but that doesn't mean you throw with any less commitment.  It just means when you make a mistake you'll be reminded not to make it again.  If you've worked out with Ron I'm sure he's opened up your lip at least once!  And I bet you took your blocking a bit more seriously after that, which is a good thing to have happened.

This same concept also applies when you're the defender.  Always ensure when you're practicing your techniques that you hit the targets you're meant to be hitting with a balance of intensity and control.  You want it to be hard enough to move your opponent and get a good reaction, but controlled enough that you don't cause any permanent damage.  If you find that balance then the technique will flow.  If not, your opponent will over or under react and you'll find that the technique never seems to work correctly.  Again, as your skills improve you'll be able to work your techniques harder and faster, which builds excellent reactions for both the attacker and the defender.

Any other thoughts?

Justin

[JWOLFE]

Thanks for the props Ken. I'll pay you next time we get together    LOL
 

All I can say (thankfully) are those I have trained under and worked out with all taught me the same way growing up in this art.

Trust is the key though, and I believe punches going "UP" aren't necessarily on the same level as punches going "DOWN" (Rank wise). You are putting your life in the other person's hand eveytime you hit the mat. In other words, I wouldn't full out attack a new white belt on his/her first night when checking out the art.  There are tons of things in the beginning that needs to be taught and reinforced, then as the building blocks of the basics set in, you start seeing the workouts build up and true confidence in the art grow with the practitioner. That's what it's all about

Salute to all

Jason

[usnken]

Jason, no problem! Ha.

Dave, I should have clarified a bit: when Jason invites me to try to hit him... he doesnt allow himself to get worked up to the point where he destroys my limbs with his blocks, unless I ask him to do so (explained below). I feel it is the responsiblity of the instructor to gauge how much force to apply with any given student.

In my case I invite Jason to always make the fist one count. That is--if he is about to teach me a technique that I have not seen before I invite him to make the first one do what it should (with regard to making me react). I dont like pain, truthfully, but it is important to have any given technique performed on me with plenty of power and force so that I LEARN I CAN TRUST THE TECHNIQUE. One time Jason was showing us to knee a person into the side of the thigh. He asked the class if everyone had gotten a 'charlie horse' in the side of the thigh before. Not being the smartest guy in the room I raised my hand and said I had not, which was true. I had never felt someone knee my thigh before so I didnt really trust how much it would hurt. So, Jason was kind enough to show me. OUCH! It hurt and the class seemed to get a kick out of it. But, it taught me that kneeing someone in the thigh is an effective technique ....so now I trust it.

Now, if someone throws a weak punch they might be actually inviting their partner to use a weak block....which does no one any good...because, how can you trust your blocks to work on the street if you havent felt how much they can hurt, at least once?  Im not proposing to destroy limbs, just to make the block do what it is supposed to.

...and that cannot be done if a weak punch is thrown in the first place.     

My .02 cents.

[Chuck Cory]

Good post Ken. If I had a nickel for everyone that said show me how it feels I could retire. Most of the time what I use is my fingers. I found that I can poke the opponent in the place I would normally punch or strike them and get the same movement without the additional force. Try it and let me know if it works for you. I use two fingers shortened to the same length or the thumb. A thumb to the spleen, liver or throat can really hurt so be carefully. Then there is the old fashioned way, Punching with force!

I have some more to say about "Not trying to hit your partner while working out" but I would like to encourage other posts first before I give all my thoughts on it. It is good to see everyone starting to get active on the board.

Chuck

[Dave Lorenson]

Master Chuck,

Well, I finally navigated my way back to your website and I like the way it looks.  Thanks for making it available to us!

I would also like to chime in on this topic and say that I'm also proud of Ken and of Jason for carrying on the tradition the way it was passed down to all of us!  It's also so encouraging to read Dave's posts and hear your perspective echoed through him!

Glad to be back!

Salute,

Dave Lorenson
(now writing from Wisconsin)

[sansooman]

Now this is a great topic.  First time on the mat with Chuck for my official butt whipping, I pulled my punches which in fact will make Chuck unhappy for you did not commit.  Chuck would point at his nose and say hit me. Now if you did it half ass he would catch and say it again hit me until you actually threw the punch and committed yourself to it.  Now anyone who has work out with Chuck knows he has fun when the punches come to him directly, never know what is going to happen.

The best work out with Chuck when he had decided just to use his finger to hit the target, which did not take much force but hit the area right on the money each and every time, to move them off balance.  This part of the training was to learn to control the body of the opponent. "If you can hit the target with just a finger, imagine what you can do with an actual strike"!

[martial_imaging]

For many years, I was Chuck's primary lesson dummy.  In the beginning, I had the same problem others describe when I didn't actually throw my punch at him.  I think that really helped me learn to always try to hit my opponent - whomever he/she may be.  I don't try my best to hit him/her, but I ALWAYS throw a punch that is intended to make contact.  Most of the time, I'm not throwing it very hard or very fast, but it's always inteded to have a bit behind it to let my opponent know it's there and is going to keep coming if he doesn't move or block it.

Consequently, it drives me nuts when others don't do the same for me.  I think the reasons have already been stated by others, but I really wanted to emphasize that it doesn't have to be hard or fast, it just has to be REAL.  The speed and applied force should be "targeted" for the person who is the designated "defender" - adjusted for their level of expertise, and the spirit of the workout.  In other words, just because that person is a black belt doesn't mean the punch should be thrown fast and hard.  Maybe you're in the flow of a slow paced workout?  Well...something to think about, huh?

Oh, and to reply to Justin's comment about opening a few lips. Well, just about everyone of those punches were not thrown that hard or very fast. They almost always happened in the beginning of the workout, when my opponent was used to people not tyring to hit him/her (yeah, her too).  Typically, the try to block me, but instead walk into the punch without moving their head, because they've developed bad habits.

Ron Bilow