San Soo Forms

[kfss4life]

I would like to get some some insight on the following:Did our forms come out of the books that Jimmy brought over with him or
did Jimmy develop them himself using the fighting techniques that were in the books?I've heard some Masters say that Jimmy told
them to make there own forms,it can be done using the techniques that we are taught and staying within the guide lines of San Soo.
It is a great training tool.What do you guy's think?

Salute,
Bill F.

[kfletcher]

We don't make ours here. We have been told more than once to "teach it as you were taught". We keep it traditional here in regards to forms. Couldn't speak for anyone else or what Jimmy may have said. This would be better for Chuck or Ron to respond to.
Kenneth

[Dave]

I would stay away from making up your own forms. If you want to do that on your own time, I guess I see nothing wrong with that. It would be the same as making up your own exercises for your own fitness, on your own time. I would never encourage teaching made up forms to a student though. It would not be fair to that student. It also would not be fair to you either. Why make up forms when there are plenty that are documented that you could practice the correct way?  Do you think you could add something that is missing?  The forms were originally much longer than 26 movements and were shortened by Jimmy. You could literally take one 26 movement form and practice it for as long as you want and get a tremendous benefit out of it. You could do it slow and methodical, slower and with tension, quicker and more fluent, or just work on one move at a time and understand that move. Then maybe work that one move with tension over and over, then apply that one move to a lesson, and another lesson. Then move on to the next move.  You see where I am going.   Let me ask you, Why do you want to make up your own forms?  There are plenty of forms documented that should keep you busy for a lifetime.

[RonG]

Jimmy did not say to make up and teach your own form, he said, "you can make up your own SHOW forms for your personal demonstrations".  However since must do not have a strong base knowledge of the rules of form, I would recommend against it.  I have seen some try it and I was embarrassed by what I saw, the words Jimmy would use, "that was Mickey Mouse".   

[sansooman]

With the forms that are taught in San Soo and some other arts, you have techniques that are very applicable and effective.  Actually I think form is a must and keep it the way it was taught.  Sure you can make up your exercise that suits your needs for specifics when training on your own keep everything else simple.  The form keeps your mind in tune especially when confined to close space (only place to work when the urge comes into play) this makes the form even tighter, better performance on the individuals part who may practices them as taught.

Life is good to all a Happy holidays to you.

[usnken]

This is an interesting subject for me. I have wanted to learn more about forms for some time now. I have passively heard of “joining forms” together (which has clarified to me recently via email), and have also heard about a variety of ‘types’, including:

1.   Show forms (Reference: see Ron G.’s comment above) (By the way, Master Gatewood, I have not read your book on Forms, so my apologies if this information is covered in it…though I have flipped through a friends copy and it seemed to be in line with what I was taught with regard to the rules of forms—see below).

2.   Battle forms (Reference:  Starting and stoppng on a dime, | Simons Kung Fu www.simonskungfu.com/?q=node/76/135 )

3.   Fighting Forms (Reference: http://www.amazon.com/Kung-San-Fighting-Forms-Book/dp/0967528356 )

4.   Family forms (Reference: Starting and stoppng on a dime, | Simons Kung Fu www.simonskungfu.com/?q=node/76/135 )

5.   Basic hand Forms (Reference: Sansoo.com: "8 basic hand forms"). 

I haven’t yet been given a clear definition of these (when compared to each other).  I understand a true form will always move Front to Rear, Left to Right in a counter clockwise motion. If it does not follow these rules, it’s not a “real” Jimmy form. When you do a short form of 26 moves, then your first 5 moves are your Front to Rear motions, and your close (#6 - fist to palm) is separate. Then, moves #7 to 11 will start the Left to Right motion. This pattern starts over and continues on…for 365 moves (If I remember correctly). I have some additional rules, but that is the gist of my info for these purposes.  As mentioned above, these rules seem pretty accurate when compared to Master Gatewoods book and these forms:     http://www.easthillskungfu.com/forms.htm
   
So, my question is this: What really are the differences between the forms types (1-5) listed above?

[kfss4life]

Boy this lit a fire as a topic,which is a good thing.I have always been taught to teach it as it was taught to me.When i would get a technique,even if it doesn,t work for me i was taught to never discard it,but record it and teach it as it was taught.If I throw it away and only teach what i like
then i am teaching my students things that i favor and part of the art gets lost.I encourage my students to write it down as it was taught,because that is how it has been taught for century's.Some times body mechanics change things,but always write it as it was taught
and then make special notes on how you as an individual has to do it to make it work.I dont and never will mickey mouse this art.I just brought
this up as a training tool.If a student is having problems in an area,this can possibly help them out.

[kfss4life]

Just. bought Ron G.form book.
thanks Ron....

[RonG]

Hey Guys,
Don't thank me, I just taught them as I was taught, Barbara carefully documented them and put them in a book with more detail than has ever been done, it is almost imposable to make a mistake from the way she recorded them.  She has enough to do at least 6 more possable form books but it is up to the amount of interest out there.

Usnken,
There is so much to say about forms, direction depends on which era you learned, old forms went all directions but the later year forms had similar patterns.  7&8 went left with a turn followed by a single sided punch or kick and the form continued by mirror moves.
The connecting of the forms forces you to make up the transitional moves to get from the small modified (small cross) to the grouping to make the the longer completed form (what he called the large cross).
You could not count the times I pleaded with him to not leave us with the broken up pieces.

[usnken]

Interesting topic indeed.

I guess the Simons Kung Fu site is no longer active, so sorry about posting the dead links.

Master Gatewood, thanks for the reply. I plan om purchasing your book in the future and I certainly hope to see some more books written about Forms...and whatever else you care to share!   

   

[Dave]

I have heard of different "types" of forms. And the different labels that they get. Show forms, fight forms ect.  But when I think about it, Ive really only learned how to do form one way. Forms were designed for one purpose. That is to train your body for fighting.  Correct breathing and proper balance along with controlled movements should be the practice.  Sure you could do it with tension for a great body workout. Or you could do it more fluid, like if you were to do it for a crowd. But it's really just the same thing.  Every time a form is practiced, it should be done the same way. Ive done some demonstrations in front of people before and have done a couple of forms for a crowd of people. When I do my form for a group, I still do it the same way as if I were doing it at home. I would do it a little more flowing for the crowd to make it more appealing rather than just having them watch some ape out there practicing a bunch of movements. But It would only be more fluid because I have practiced my forms on my own time over an over again so I know them inside and out. A black belt should be able to do a form at the drop of a hat and make it look precise and powerful. It should be visually stimulating to the crowd. After all, you are representing your art.  But that doesnt necessarily mean that it's a different type of form. I think that practicing to do a "show" form on your own time would be such a waste. I would think that it would be better to just practice one's form correctly and understand it. That way if you need to do it for a crowd, it should look good because you know it and understand it. Not because you spent your time practicing how to make it look good.

With that said, I have done some pretty creative things with form on my own time. I have broken down movements of the form and created really intense workouts that work parts of your body that you probably have never worked before. They really are such an important part to a student's training.

Ive never made up a form either. I think that would be a total waste of time...and a cop out really. I mean, so many forms have been documented. There is no need to make one up.

[RonG]

Americans tend to think that they can reinvent the wheel, especially without going through the pain and sweat that their Oriental instructors did.  They are bigger and stronger and can usually power their way through.  The problem is that by doing this they never learn the base or foundation of the Art, he may only learn 25 to 50% of what he would have learned.
Many can overcome their opponents until they meet a fighter truly rooted/skilled in the Arts.  I was fortunate to spend 9 years with a Shaolin trained fighter who was raised in the Monastery.  He was only here 9 days when Barbara and I met him, he helped me to understand our system better by showing things that I thought I knew but from a slightly different perspective.  In my stupid mind I assumed I could take him until he worked with me to show me things that I never knew existed.  I am glad I never had to test it.

[RonG]

I found this article on why short cuts should be avoided, it better explains what I was trying to do.
http://www.wudanggongfu.com/kungfu/article_shortcut.htm

[kfletcher]

Master Gatewood,
Nice article. Thank you.
Kenneth

[Sansoofu]

Good comments.  Interesting article.  Thank you, Ron.
M.