Is action faster than reaction?

[RonG]

I posted this on IKFSSA but I feel it is an important topic which we should all consider.

I have heard this for many years and felt that it may not be true, in many cases it is but in many cases it is not because there are many factors that enter into the equation.  I have devoted a chapter in a book that I am working on stating why I believe that it is not true in some cases.  I found this scientific new study that partially explains what causes this to be true.  They ran this experiment over and over with the same results.
Giving weight to the belief that action is conscious thought while reaction is subconscious thought and takes over the body movement which is automatic like a mouse trap, the mouse moves to the cheese and the trap reacts.  This is why Jimmy used to say, "I am like a mouse trap, he come to me and 1/1000th of a second and he is mine".
Judge for yourself but I believe it has merit.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100202193603.htm

[saxyjeff]

Master Ron...It's 2:00 a.m. and I'm laughing.  I just found the same article in another source and I couldn't get here fast enough to come here to post it.  While I was trying to find the damn Post  button I finally noticed you beat me to it.

So here's my question...With this new scientific data in mind (and granted there are always exceptions from person to person) then is it better to be the counter-stiker/puncher vs the  attacker' (fut ga).  I think this information would fit into the discussion on the other thread started by Master Benckert..with the two guys facing each other, squared off..then you throw a long arm (slowest option of the three he discussed/offered for consideration of his point) and try to land it.  According to this data the attacker now has a scientific basis to become toast if facing the wrong guy, or DEAD as Master Chuck said. 

In my own personal self-evaluation when sparring in the boxing classes, I found that a few guys I could attack and get to them more often than not. but in most of my cases against most guys I was sparring with,  I was much more effective as a counter-puncher.  Now I wasn't a professional boxer but with other guys that started at my level (like from scratch) even after a few years this is the results I continued to experience, even though I was getting better at it.  Of course, whenever Dwayne Mead came down from Palmdale nothing worked for me...He and his dad played with me like a cat with a mouse.


While there are genetic differences from individual with percentage amounts of fast or slow twitch fiber concentrations in their muscle  tissues (I mean some are going to be genetically predisposed to potentially be faster on the draw whether first or second (counterpuncher/drawing) for the most part I'm going with the camp of short arm HIDDEN (as much as possible) attacks whenever I'm gonna strike a guy first, especially in a squared off moment.

I love this article, it makes one think.


Jeff Wood

[RonG]

Jeff,
There are many things we consider fact but then there can be some that prove it is not as plain as we thought.  When I was in law enforcement I made up my mind that if a guy had a gun on me and I felt he intended to use it, I would do my best to take the gun or attempt to shoot him, which can be done unless he already started to pull the trigger.  The chance of beating him is there but you may also get shot or you both may die, I never would give up my gun and helplessly watch him kill me.
There are many factors that effects the speed and intensity of an attack, Jimmy knew this, I don't think I saw him ever throw a punch or a kick without first faking a lead hand or other distraction.
Factors: DNA, training, conditioning, muscle (slow or fast twitch), intelligence, ability to train and allow the subconscious to fight for you as Jimmy would say, "let your mind use your body", etc.
Since the tests involved the subjects knowing that they were in a speed contest and keyed on the drawing subject with no set ups or distractions they were keyed on the first move.  The one to draw had his mind on when he was about to move, if the other subject kept his mind empty and was defocused he can beat him.
How many times have you heard famous masters discuss Samurai techniques of empty or nothingness which is basically about the use of subconscious.

[johnnywwheeler]

       This definitely applies to us. They documented that while the person reacting (reaction) was faster than the attacker(s), their (his) accuracy wasn't as good. I would think the more the test is repeated (training) the more accurate the subject would become. Pathways are developed through training.
       It could lead to helpful information for those with neurological problems like the article stated.
                                        John
                                           

[ccory]

You are right John, I have found that speed without accuracy is useless. But, practice helps to iimprove accuracy. The more one practices the more accurate one becomes. I like to think that Speed is an equasion of S=A+B+C+D. Speed =Accuracy+Balance+Cordination+Dicipline. Everything combined will give you a speed that also has power and accuracy with it.

I used to tell people, you can have the fastest punch in the world, but if you miss the peroson or do not strike a vital area, all that speed was for nothing.

I invented a double ball setup that I used to train my accuracy with. I also had my students use them. I gave Al Rubin a few. I don't know if he ever put them up in his school or not.


Chuck

[Dave]

That ball setup is pretty nifty.  It works great and is hard to use at first, but after you get into the swing of it. It really starts to test and work your accuracy.  I need to get mine out again and work on them.

[Nicholas]

Chuck,
Could you upload a drawing or photo of that ball set up. I have set up a pad as targets on some ropes that the students generally use for climbing. They usually stand opposite each other and punch back and forth. You never know where it will go.

Nicholas

[RonG]

Hi Chuck,
I would also like to see the striking set up, sounds interesting.  I posted the article to kind of open some ideas and to somewhat expose a myth because I have found there are no absolutes, every thing has both positive and negative.  As I age I really apprecite the law of "every action causes a reaction".
Distance, timing, trainings, speed, etc. are all necessary to create a fighter, even though speed may cause a slight drop in accuracy, I would think through proper training our goal is to have them all.
The worst road to travel are the people who perfer pure power to anything, the rest of their training suffers and half of the Art eludes them.  Remember some of those guys in class, sure if they hit someone they could smash their face but how many times have we seen them say, "that lesson sucks, let's work out".  Did it really suck, no, they did not understand it.
Good to hear from you

[kfletcher]

This is the two ball trainer. They work pretty well and are a good tool to train with. Chuck wanted me to let everyone know we are putting together a few of these trainers with an instructional video on how to get the most usage from them.  They will be in the online store soon.
Kenneth
http://http://shoppingcart.sansootennessee.com/index.php?pr=Training_&_Sparring__Equipment

[johnnywwheeler]

   Interesting.
  Did you get the idea from the double end ball (ball in center, tied to ceiling and tied to the floor)?

[RonG]

When I started with Jimmy in the early 60s, he had two bags in his school, one heavy bag and an air filled that was attached at the floor and overhead beam with an elastic rope.

[kfletcher]

Hey Johnny,
It is different than the double end ball. Chuck has been around alot of boxing and full contact schools so he has definitely seen and probably trained with them. This setup provides a much more chaotic movement. You can still shift, and work on evasive head and body movements but the bottom ball can be very challenging to strike when the upper ball is in play. If you set or shift your horses or cats and use different strikes this will really help with your hand eye coordination, speed and accuracy. It isn't really going to train power in the traditional sense. However, with proper breathing timed with the proper movements, it can really help you bring everything together. It will certainly make striking movements more precise and reflexive. When it's moving quick, you can't pause or anticipate its movement with a high percentage of accuracy. It has to be more reflexive. This certainly ties into Master Gatewood's previous statements and questions in this post. It is also the reason it has been brought up. It  kinda helps show the difference between controlled speed with accuracy versus the "just" speed or power equation. It also brings into play conscious thought versus subconscious or reflexive movements and how they can be trained,  integrated and used in a complementary manner.  At least this has been my thoughts since using one. As Chuck has said numerous times "you can be the fastest puncher in the world, but you better hit me right or you're going to the hospital."
Best Wishes,
Kenneth

[johnnywwheeler]

    Hi Kenneth,
  Sounds good. I always look for different apparatus to help develop skill. I understand what your saying about the horses and kick stance too.
                  John

[ccory]

John the ball you are talking about is called a double end ball. By being tied on both ends it moves back fast, but it moves in a predictable motion.

The double ball configuration I invented uses two balls about 1 3/4 inch each. The bottom is loose, so when struck it will cause the balls to move erratically. This will improve your hand and eye coordination, your punching accuracy and increase your eye recognition speed. It will also help you to evade or duck an oncoming force.

It is habit forming and there are a lot of ways to use it.

Chuck

[Jeff C.]

I would recommend everyone to try out the timing balls.  If they sell them here, this is where you should purchase them.  Chuck, when teaching the timing balls here in Michigan, Chuck made it look like child's play.  I made my own out of tennis balls, but the design Chuck has is much much better.  The tennis balls do not perform as the hard rubber balls do.