New Topic: Solid Geometry as applied to our opponent

[Dave]

Over the years, I have never seen anybody better at manipulating balance and understanding it more so than Chuck. I'm sure there are others that are good, I've just never seen anybody better. And trust me, I've looked. I honestly believe that he took this part of the art from Jimmy that most just couldn't pick up on or just didn't want to take the time to work on. The most important thing is that he understands how to teach it. and it is usually his top students that get it as well.  Controlling balance is the single most important part of our art besides Fut Ga.  You'll never have to even hit your opponent. If you can take away their center of gravity and control their balance, you take everything from them. It is not extreme movement either. It is very subtle and that is key. It has to be subtle or, like Kenneth touched on, you will create a new balance point and your efforts will be overextended causing you to start over again.  I remember when I was first learning how to manipulate balance, Chuck would move me around and make me feel handicapped, like I could not even stand up.  He can do this with a big guy as well. Kenneth can tell you that.  The crazy thing is, he can manipulate your weight just enough that causes your mind to instinctually try to maintain equilibrium, and before your mind can react, it is too late because you have been set up for a blind attack.  This is virtually impossible to counter.

I recommend that anyone practicing balance control, do so on people of different sizes and shapes. Not only big tall people but solid strong guys, and even smaller people.  I've been fortunate to have Ken as a work out partner as he has taught me a lot about moving a big guy around.

I hope Master Ron Bilow chimes in.  He has a great understanding of balance control. I have learned a thing or to from him and I know others will too.

Dave

[ccory]

Kenneth for the people who do not know your size, you should let them know your height.  That way they will better understand what Dave is saying here.

I hope everyone took note when Dave explained that the unbalancing is slight, not forceful.

Thanks Dave for your input.

Chuck

[ccory]

On controling balance, I would hope to hear something from Ron Bilow, but I know they are in the process of moving. Master Bat McGrath or Master Bobby Staton could give us some great input as well. How about Dave Lorenson as well. Please do not feel that I am in any way limiting this conversation, if anyone has anything to add please do. I know we have some members out there in San Soo or not in San Soo that should be able to add to this thread.

Off subject, USNKen has not been around lately. Ken you out there?

Chuck

[kfletcher]

Dave,
Good post. We've learned alot by working with each other. Guys, Dave is the solid strong guy he alluded to. When we work if something doesn't feel right, we tell each other. No egos....we just want to get it right. I'm 6'5" about 260lbs. I take pride in the fact people tell me I don't move or think like a typical "big guy" for what it is worth. I use balance on Gabby who is probably 100 lbs soaking wet. It really does need to be practiced on everyone no matter the shape or size as Dave said.
Ron is very right....we all get older and have "things" change what we're capable of doing. The Masters around here all move you wherever they want. And though I'm much larger, they can throw me like a rag doll. It's done with great technique by all of them. Bobby especially likes throwing people.
Kenneth

[usnken]

Hi there. Yes, Master Cory--I am still around. Thanks for asking. I have been a quiet lurker lately.

This is a very fascinating topic to read about and I am waiting for it to go more in-depth, frankly, so that us new guys might be able to learn a new skill from it (don’t get me wrong--I love the theory behind it, but if you haven’t been lucky enough to be exposed to it in person, the next best thing I can hope for is some kind of low-level "how-to" examples).



 

[Dave]

Hey Ken,

Balance is best learned in person. It is hard enough to read lessons and understand them, let alone an advanced concept.  If you have a good workout partner,  It would help to practice the application of triangles as pertaining to our art, or Kung Fu in general, with your partner.  The application of triangles takes hands on practice in itself.  It would certainly be cool if we could get some basic how-to videos for people to reference.  I know the time  and effort it takes to make a video never pays off in our community, but we can always work toward something. 

If you ever get a chance to visit us down here, we would all be willing to work out with you, practice and learn together.

[Dave Lorenson]

Hi All,

Thanks for thinking of me Master Cory!  I appreciate the discussions generated here, unfortunately I have been quite busy for the past few weeks and unable to spend much time on-line.

The concept of 3 dimensional forces are absolutely vital to our effectiveness in this system.  As Master Gatewood mentioned, this ability to feel balance in one's self and in others and then capitalize on it is the answer to most close quarters combat.

As Ken Fletcher mentioned in his post, distance from the base and distance from the center are two important elements in upsetting or maintaining balance.  The greater the distance from the center or balance point, the less force is necessary to manipulate movement.

I was taught early on that every single movement we perform in every lesson should set up the next.  Wrapped up in this is the concept of taking the enemy's(ies') balance early and never allowing it to be regained.  I heard this 2nd hand from the Grandmaster, "Hands are for holding, for hitting, body is for power."  It stands to illustrate that when we are in process of taking balance from someone that we must maintain our own balance by having our base under us properly at all times.  When our base is under our center and our periphery, then we have capability and the power to upset the balance of someone else.  This is part of the Internal Elements of Kung Fu that this system carries.

From a 3D perspective, if I attack the base of my enemy to offset balance, then I must either cause enough pain or develop enough leverage for the enemy to react by moving off balance, or I must set up the enemy with something else so that my attack to the base is more effective.  Naturally, I can attack a point far from the base at an optimal angle which will create the unbalanced situation for my enemy.  As long as I continue to follow up and keep the enemy off balance I will require much less force to bring about the result.

I have some more to say regarding this topic, but it will have to wait for now...thanks for you patience, I enjoy the rich discussions.

With Respect,

David Lorenson

[martial_imaging]

Hey Guys!

Yeah, we are in the process of getting settled in our new home.   I've been reading the posts and have wanted to write something for some time now.  I find it very difficult to write about 3D geometry in a way that all will understand...and agree, it is best taught in person.  So, for now, I'm going to focus on balance.

Controlling balance is also difficult to write about.  One point I'd like to make for now is, TAKING balance and CONTROLLING balance are VERY, VERY different things.  I have no doubt that most proficient San Soo practitioners are excellent at taking balance, but I've seen very few who actually control it.  For the most part, particularly when learning the difference between the two, one needs to keep constant physical attachment to their opponent in order to effectively CONTROL balance.  Obviuosly, there are exceptions.

As Kenneth Fletcher pointed out (or was it DVB?), the movements in controlling balance are extremely subtle.  One need only to shift the opponents center of balance to an unstable state.  Any further motion causes that person to take a step or fall down, and the process begins all over.  This is extremely difficult to get a grip on while working on it and is nearly impossible to understand if all you ever do is "bang" with your workout partner.  I've always spent time practicing this.  In fact, most of my training revolves around controlling balance, although I do like to spend a period of time "banging" too.  Hey, I know, banging is fun...it makes you feel tough...ready for anything.  However, once you get good at it you need to spend most of your time learning and growing.

Hope everyone is well.  Oh, by the way...I'm in Houston again if anyone finds themselves travelling.

Ron

[Dave Lorenson]

Master Bilow,

Great point about controlling balance!  This is so important to efficiency in hand to hand combat.  Like you said, most everyone can take balance.  But the opponent can regain balance, sometimes surprisingly fast and then...what to do?

From previous conversations it is apparent that you have been working on this issue for many years and I would say that all of us who really want to understand the power of this system need to work on the maintaining of one's own balance while CONTROLLING the balance of the enemy.

Again, second hand:  When asked if he could summarize the art of Kung Fu San Soo in one or two words, Grandmaster Woo replied, "Balance."  Even if he didn't articulate this the fact remains...it's ALL ABOUT BALANCE.  We can't produce effective power without balance.

Also, I concur with your view that it is difficult to talk about, but I would like to elaborate briefly because this is such a good topic.  Once we take balance, at the point of evasion or windmill, we need to keep up the pressure against vulnerable angles.  Just like when a leverage is applied, it needs to be maintained all the way to the ground, and often after that depending on the desired follow up.

And...what is controlling balance?  It's quite a bit more simple in inanimate objects, but the human being is so complex that it changes everything.  To control balance requires sensitivity to movement and stability, both my own and that of the person I'm in contact with.  It also requires knowledge of vulnerable targets - ones that can be used to induce pain and/or leverage.  Add to this physical sensitivity a psychological sensitivity.  To truly keep someone off balance it is important to flood their senses with physical and psychological impact - in a sense to cause overload and keep them in that state until the situation is resolved.  We learn many aggressive actions and find out early on that these actions are often intimidating, even when faced by a professional.

Naturally, with respect to Solid Geometry, we are speaking about the physical realm.  Practicing of the lessons in the right way teaches us how to keep someone off-balance - included are all of the basic elements - timing and cadence, strike points, leverage, center of gravity and axis rotation,  natural joint movement, base angles and vulnerabilities, etc.

Let me use just one basic example:
Opponent approaches with a right hand grab, push or punch to upper torso or head (we know this is happening before it begins because we are watching for 3D spatial changes - forward motion, axis rotation, high or low level advancement, etc.) and because we didn't hit first, we respond with an attack of our own - a left upwindmill to right radial nerve as we step outside and through the movement into a left horse and hold as we right palm to groin.  Step into the right shin with right leg, anchoring right foot behind opponent's right foot and T-leverage opponent back to the ground (this puts a severe leverage on the knee and ankle because the opponent, if resistant, is unable to lift the right foot).  However, if the opponent reacts quickly, he/she could stay ahead of the leverage and voluntarily fall back and extract the leg before enough pressure is applied.  This is an example of a counter by evasion.  In order to prevent the opponent's counter, we need to be sensitive and aware.  A well placed groin strike will aid in prevention by bending the opponent forward over their own center of gravity, making the voluntary fall back much more difficult.  Also, if their voluntary fall back happens anyway, we can still prevent the escape by hyperflexion of our leveraging right leg into a full knee drop to the opponent's ankle - very painful indeed.

In a 3 dimensional landscape the key is to continually take advantage of the opponent's weak balance point on each of the three planes if possible.  In the example above, the T-leverage with the leg can produce pressure against all three angles at the same time (Horizontal along both planes, lateral and deep, as well as vertical).

Thank you for the excellent discussion!

With Respect,

David Lorenson

[RonG]

There are so many ways to take or control balance, psychologically, physically, spacialy, etc.  The Chinese have a good way to say it, "uproot him or take his root".
There are many things that can be done but lets just stick to the action of the leg.
Your example would appear to be the same t-leverage as in Basic 11 where you lock the foot and apply pressure to the inside of his leg (above the ankle) which takes it out or takes him down.  If he does try to step out, it is where "feel and sticking" comes in, When you sense this, you instantly slide your foot a little up the leg and pull toward you, pulling his leg out from under him.  Now, if he is very good, he may catch his balance and put that foot down, you would then step slide into the inside of that leg with the front of your shin, knocking him down, if that didn't work, Run.  heh heh

This is the benefit of working "reversals/counters" which Jimmy told all of us to do but probably 90 to 95% of his students did not do it, at least not enough to imprint it into their brain for automatic reaction.

[Dave]

This is the benefit of working "reversals/counters" which Jimmy told all of us to do but probably 90 to 95% of his students did not do it, at least not enough to imprint it into their brain for automatic reaction.

Maybe our teacher(s) are in that 5-10 percentile ...  I for one, would love to work more counter counter stuff.. It's fun if you have a partner who is willing to work it with you.  This is something that I, for one,  could work more on and I hope is passed on to future generations of students.   You are right Master Ron.  I think this is missing with a lot of Kung Fu practitioners and should be emphasized more. The possibilities in one's training are endless if they incorporate this concept into their daily workouts.

White belts benefit  immensely if they have a black belt that understands this and can help them along with their basic lessons and show them that they have to do the lessons correctly or somebody out there could possibly counter it.  It opens up their eyes.....and makes them a better student.  Just my opinion.

Dave

[ThomPayson]

Great subject. I for one feel very lucky that I trained with Chuck at the North Hollywood school when I did. Counters were somewhat a fact of life in the Thursday night Black Belt classes. It was also very beneficial that no matter how good you thought you were getting, there was ALWAYS someone better than you that took the time to work on the subtle aspects of the workout. Although there was the fair share of "banging" it was always with the purpose to get better. If your technique did not affect your partners balance he didn't move just to make you feel good. He made you make adjustments and Chuck was there to see we did it right. Also although a little off the subject we never threw a punch at our partner that wasn't directed right through him. Not to the side and but right at him. This was Chuck's pet peeve at the time, it was the only way to learn how to move correctly. This one factor helped us with our geometry, our footwork, our counters and many other aspects of the "art". I have little doubt that my San Soo Tennessee brothers and sisters throw their punches directly at their partners. There was a woman named Sherie at our school who was a very high ranking Black Belt she was one person who always took the time to show me how to counter when ever we worked out. I have to admit that I became reluctant to want to work out with her frequently because I spent the majority of the workout suspended in the air.

[Sansoofu]

I believe I qualify as one of those small guys that Dave was talkin about above.  I am all of 5'6"-5'7" without shoes.  I've had the pleasure of working with Dave, Ken, & Chuck a lot over the past four years.  We also have another big fella in our class, but out of respect for my friend I will leave out his personal measurements for him to post if he so desires.  I'll just say that if Kenneth is a Defensive End, then he is a Defensive Tackle.

I can certainly attest to the fact that not throwing a solid, precise attack at your opponent in class is still absolutely one of Chuck's pet peeves.  I can also bear witness to the fact that Chuck consistently manipulates the balance of every person that I have ever seen him work with, with very minimal effort, no matter what size they are.  Again, like Dave has also stated, what is so impressive is that Chuck can teach balance control just as well as he can perform balance control.

Chuck builds balance control into each one of his lessons, and it is every bit as much of a pet peeve if he sees you working too hard in class without properly controlling your opponent's balance.  "You're making me tired watching you work so hard," is a statement that we have heard on more than one occasion.  Personally, I have benefitted greatly from working with Chuck, Ken, Dave, Tony, Devin, and Gabby on the nuances of balance control.  I know enough to know that I am very novice at consistently performing the concept substantially on a 3-D Geometric level, but I have no hesitation in saying that I have come a long way thanks to the help of my teachers and classmates.

Recently, Chuck has been focusing on how the hips affect balance control when given slight changes in angle with the upper belts in our class.  For instance, if you step straight in and attack the Liver, then the upper torso will bend mainly forward with a slight bend to the right side and the right hip will move primarily straight back and slightly to the left.  But with a slight change in attacking the Liver from an angle coming more from the right side rather than straight on, then the torso bends much more to the right side rather than forward and the hip shifts to the left more than it does straight back.  This slight change in the angle will change the entire equation of which targets will be exposed the most, which of your weapons will be the easiest to attack those targets with, how violently it takes your opponent's balance, and, to some extent, whether your technique will remain more linear or angular, or whether it will become more circular to get the most efficiency and economy of motion.

Great posts everybody!  I'm really diggin this thread!

M.

[martial_imaging]

Marc,

Great comments on ways to vary setting up your opponent by altering your attack.  I think this is a really important skill to develop.  Not only will it allow you to understand where your opponent will go with different strike angles, but it will allow you to direct him/her where you want, when you want, and be there ready to capitalize on the effects.  This is a core concept in San Soo.

Ron Bilow