Let's talk about Physics and the Art

[ccory]

Well the board has been pretty quiet for a few days. I did not mean to scare everyone off. Let's get some threads started on the Physics behind the Art. Let's start with fulcrums and levers.

Chuck

[Nicholas]

I have been showing my students that being centered, grounded and balanced is pretty much the first step. They are usually not aware of how much they are out of balance when just standing upright.

[Dave Lorenson]

Great topic Master Cory,

Let me contribute with a few basic definitions:
Class 1 Lever: A lever in which the fulcrum is between the load and effort.
Class 2 Lever: A lever in which the load is between the fulcrum and effort.
Class 3 Lever: A lever in which the effort is between the fulcrum and load.
Effort: The force applied to move a load using a simple machine.
Fulcrum: The fixed point at which a lever arm pivots.
Load: the weight or resistance that is moved using a simple machine.
Lever: A beam, free to pivot around a fixed point, used to move a load.
Newton: the unit used to measure the amount of force needed to lift a load or overcome a resistance.
Simple Machine: fundamental labor-saving devices that include lever, pulley, wheel and axle, inclined plane, screw, and wedge.

With Respect,
David Lorenson

[martial_imaging]

Dave,

Thanks for defining the different types of lever systems.  This is an important concept that is often poorly understood.  Those of us who have studied physics in school are particularly lucky, but for those who have not, the topic can be quite daunting. 

It would be great if we could have some technique descriptions of each. Let me start that by illustrating the Class 3 Lever (the first technique that came to mind):

1) opponent throws a left punch. 
2) you step outside into a right half horse using a left upwindmill block (grabbing the wrist at the end of the block), pivot to your left and punch his left kidney with your right hand.  You're now essentially standing behind your opponent facing the same direction he/she is. 
3) you then grab the wrist with your right hand as well, while ducking under the arm and stepping with your right foot into a full horse that crosses your opponent's centerline.
4) as you hold the wrist still (the fulcrum), you raise your body under your opponent's arm with his/her elbow directly over your shoulder (the effort).
The elbow is too weak to raise your opponent's body (the load) and fails (your desired result). 

As Dave pointed out, the classic physics definition states the fulcrum is a fixed point, but in many San Soo leverages the fulcrum is actually moving.  Take this technique for example, most of us actually pull down on the wrist while applying the effort upwards with our body (led by our shoulder) through the elbow.  This fact makes it sometimes difficult for us to teach the concepts of the different types of lever systems.  If one does not recognize this, this leverage may be mistakenly classified as a Class 1 Lever, rather than a Class 3 lever and, more importantly, executed improperly or suboptimally.  Some of you are probably wondering why it matters, especially if you don't have any problem breaking your opponent's arm with this technique, but it does matter when you try to teach the technique, or try to help someone who is having trouble with it.  I'm not saying you need to know what class lever it is, but you certainly need to understand the concepts outlined by the different class types.

Who wants to illustrate the Class 1 and 2 Levers?

Ron

[Dave]

Cool

Good Lesson Ron.  My first initial thought was that the wrist (being held by you and pulled down would be the effort and your shoulder would be the fulcrum creating a class 1 lever. But you did a great job explaining the lesson with the moving fulcrum and indeed that would be a class 3 lever, similar to a fisherman where the man anchored to the boat is the fulcrum, him pulling up on the pole would be the effort, then the fish dangling on the end would be the load.

1. step with L foot just outside opponents R foot.
2. Grab his R tricep with your R (thumb down)
3. Pull and turn him as you strike with L punch to their R kidney
4. Bring your R arm up his blind spot under his chin and wrap him up in a choke hold
5. Step w/ R foot across their back side behind their L foot
6. go down to your L knee bringing them down backwards across your R knee (Back Breaker)

Your knee into the small of their back is the fulcrum. And correct me if I'm wrong but their feet end would be the Load because it is the heavier end and it would naturally be weighing down. The head side of opponent would be the downward effort because the way I learned the lesson, You are striking down on the throat as they are laying over your knee.

Class 1 Lever

Dave

[martial_imaging]

Dave,

I agree with that, as you've described it.  If one were to turn the technique into a throw, with the planted knee (fulcrum) placed under the thigh, rather than the small of the back, it would turn the lever into a Class 2 type - of course, the throw isn't really the same lesson, then, is it?  Very interesting stuff!

Ron

[kfletcher]

Great stuff guys. The thing about San Soo is that the movements are done by a lot of people and not fully understood. They can be done quite intuitively, by some, but I agree 100% with your statement Ron that to achieve the largest result with the least effort an understanding of the concepts are critical. The other component we have talked about numerous times in personal discussions is the effect of balance on these movements. The body is not a static weight. It is resisting and moving in a counter effort more times than not in "real situations" as you previously stated. Take for instance Dave's lesson which is quite good. If you take into account that Dave's knee is the fulcrum you also have to take in to effect that the placement will effect the desired outcomes. If the knee is set to high the person will fall back onto your leg receiving a strike, but the weight will be centered more upon the upper portion of the body. This may prevent you from damaging the vertebrae, but it will certainly increase the effort used to maintain control of the person after the strike and it will subject your knee to additional strains and potential injury (the forces have to go somewhere). If done with the knee lower, as Ron said, the trap throw is quite nice but a different desired outcome. So the knee placement and resulting balance of the person is critical. To go one step further, after you have damaged the persons back, if done properly, the person will be relatively balanced across your knee (Class 1) allowing for the strike to the throat to have the desired effect of damage plus moving the opponents head and upper torso to the ground and helping release the knee from under your opponent. If done properly it requires a fraction of the effort and expended energy on your part. Taking the person's balance before pulling them across your knee also effects effort and accuracy but that is a topic for another discussion probably.
Kenneth

[Dave Lorenson]

 

Excellent posts gentlemen!  Ron, I really appreciate that you made it clear that when we apply the laws of physics to living organisms, it changes the understanding of those laws - it expands the definition because of the application.  Thus, biophysics is the object of our study, at least physically, even if we don't want to process the information cognitively.  However, Grandmaster Woo taught us to be thinking fighters, I'm with you, we would better serve ourselves if we understand exactly why what we do works.

There are some very interesting dynamics in leverage...I was thinking after your posts about how a T-leverage starts out as one type of lever, but changes as the pressure is applied...initially, when contact is made, the fulcrum is our knee and the effort and loads are the subject's body below and above the contact point.  However, when pressure is generated enough that the subject can no longer move the foot, the fulcrum becomes the ground and the knee is our effort, the load is the subject's body above the contact point.  Thus a class 1 lever immediately changes due to the pressure applied.  In this illustration also, if the "beam" or lower leg fails where the pressure is applied, the another "desired" result is obtained anyway.

With Respect,

David

[Sansoofu]

Now we're talkin!!  Great posts!  This is excellent information!

[ccory]

An interesting point was brought up regarding using the knee. If you drop the person to high as mentioned you will not have the desired effect on his lower back, but you will have a more powerful strike to the throat. More importantly, it will be critical to make sure the knee is perfectly straight as you bring the opponent down onto the knee. If the knee is leaning, it will have the same effect of a large force coming down on a wall that is leaning in one direction or another and is likely to collapse under the weight. If the wall (knee) is perpendicular to the body, it will be able to take a lot more force due to the 90 degree of the structure. This is where most people go wrong when applying this type of technique.

Dave Lorenson thanks for the definitions. Ron thanks for the examples and expounding on the class of levers. Kenneth great example and Nicholas good to see you are teaching your students the concepts of a plum body and the centering of your balance.

Great guys, I knew I could count on most of you to get the ball rolling.

Chuck

[ccory]

Dave I think I forgot to thank you for the lesson that brought us to some important points that I am sure we all already know. But we have a lot of silent readers. So I hope someone received something out of this thread so far.  Great job!

Chuck

[Dave Lorenson]

What seems to be an important element in understanding levers with regards to fighting application is that I must understand how the body works in basic form to understand how to manipulate the body into positions that are damaging.

Use of levers can be a very effective method for producing the desired results of ending conflict efficiently and powerfully.  I'm sure that all of you who trained with Master Cory have felt the strain of leverage on fingers, wrists, elbows, shoulders, neck, thoracic and lumbar spine, hips, knees, ankles and toes.  Yet no one would have felt these, had he not understood how the various joints normally move and how they, "Shouldn't" move.

One of the lessons we were covering in class last night was a takedown using the rotation of the hip.  The enemy commits with a left hand to either punch, push or grab and you respond with a right down windmill placing yourself in a right kick (cat) stance.  As you pull your opponent down and forward with the hold after the windmill right front kick to floating ribs.  Step back and to your right (behind and to opponent's left) after the kick and use your momentum to pull opponent back and to the ground by grasping above left knee with your right hand and below with your left (This puts a tremendous amount of force on the hip, rotating it out).  Follow up with right back hammer to groin.

What type of lever(s) is in play in this lesson?

With Respect,

David

[Dave]

  I'm sure that all of you who trained with Master Cory have felt the strain of leverage on fingers, wrists, elbows, shoulders, neck, thoracic and lumbar spine, hips, knees, ankles and toes. 

Yes.  and he is not the only one. I have never been hurt by my instructors, but have felt pain time and time again by these techniques taught over the years. To me, this is the correct way to teach these lessons.  How can you ever teach a lesson which you have never felt in real time?...you cant. It only takes one time. Then you ask your teacher, "why did it feel that way''? What made that work?  How can I teach it the exact same way?   As students, we should be asking ourselves these exact same questions. To me, this is how the true essence of our Kung Fu stays alive. I truly hope that we all never forget that.



I think I understand the lesson that you describe Dave.  If it is the same lesson, then I would call it a class 2 lever.  and yes, it does put tremendous strain on the hip.  Actually, one day in class I saw someone do this technique on one of our black belts during a workout and his leg (the one not being pulled) got hung in the carpet.  It was a wonder that it didnt throw his knee or hip out. He got hurt, but it wasnt serious.  The leg you are pulling would be the effort, the rooted foot would be the fulcrum and his weight coming down between those would be the load.  I wish we had a visual of this lesson so it would make more sense.  I think I understand what you are talking about.  Great lesson.

Dave

[Dave]

sorry, my last post just quoted your entire post Dave.   I hope you can make sense of my response.  It's been a really long day for me

regards,
Dave VB

[mightywimp]

Hey everyone , I hope all is well. Chuck, thanks for getting this topic started !

There is a great lesson that I believe goes through all 3 classes of fulcrum & levers on the Grandmaster Woo Memorial dvd #2. It's the 1st lesson.
1. Take opponents left arm and bar it behind their back with your right, keeping the leverage buy pulling up on the opponents left arm with your right. This is very standard arm bar that we've used hundreds of times.
2. Keeping  pressure on the arm strike the back of the neck with a left forearm or chop to bend the opponent over.
3. Now you should be in a left 1/2 horse barring opponents left arm behind with your right.
4. Next step up and over the right side of your opponents neck with your right leg still keeping a strong leverage on the arm.
5. Keeping the arm bar tight step down/back and through your opponents center point and back to the rear of his triangle pulling up on the arm as you step down and through. You will finish being in a left 1/2 horse. Be careful with this one ! Very easy to dislocate the shoulder.

The new footage of Jimmy is awesome ! If you can I highly suggest ordering a copy of each for yourself. These are are some of the best teaching dvd's I've seen with Grandmaster Woo.

Don