New Topic: Solid Geometry as applied to our opponent

[ccory]

Let's talk about solid geometry as applied to our opponent. How to we use it to our advantage and why is it so important to our defending ourselves.

Let's not forget the pervious topic as well.

Chuck

[Dave]

I'll comment a little bit. But I would love to hear some other input on these ideas

-Our blocks should be 90 degree angles, or they usually don't work

-our angles have to be correct where we step when we block and when we attack or strike our targets

-the use of triangles in the application of taking balance and the weak points on the body. this is particularly important with throws and takedowns


I wont elaborate too much just yet. I'm sure there will be plenty of input from others that could tackle these ideas.  Books could be written on this stuff.

[Sansoofu]

Another good topic!...  I'll see if I can get the ball rollin' a little bit...

There is Geometry all over the place in our art.  I believe that the triangle is particularly important, but one part of the triangle that I believe most students overlook is the proof of a triangle.  The triangle can be an extremely powerful tool when properly understood.

The way that we learn a technique is very geometric in nature. We start with our axiom (first principle) which sets up our deduced logical progression of necessary steps of a technique to create a devastating outcome (conclusion).  That is a very basic explanation of a Geometry proof.  The proper angles of a step will set up the delivery of maximum force for a block and a strike or change the reaction on the opponent's body from simply shifting balance to completely locking the skeleton (when done properly).  Basic triangle proofs infer complementary angles, supplementary angles and adjacent angles that can build on each other to turn a technique from being a simple straight line to a 90* Right triangle or an Isosceles triangle with two equal sides all the way into an obtuse 270* complimentary angle that would deliver much more force for a throw or a leverage or create the foundation for a basic circular motion.

Even something as simple as the angle of our back foot when stepping into a horse being between a 30* to a 45* angle for proper skeletal structure that is sturdy, or the bend of the front knee in that same horse being at enough of an angle for us to deliver force forward without falling a victim to the recoil of our own strike.  How about the 45* on both sides of the line that is created by the direction that your toe is pointing in a horse to establish where your range of maximum force is for a strike and how that force can be diminished by each degree outside of that 90* triangle?  Like Dave mentioned above, the angle of our arm when delivering a solid block must be at a 90* angle.  Many times we step through an opponent to the triangles behind them using a 45* angle...

The examples are literally everywhere.  Changing one detail of our proof can take us to an exponential number of effective outcomes as long as we follow the logical progressions deduced from our geometric axioms of triangles.

M.

[ccory]

Great start guys!

Now let us look at the 3 dimensional concept of solid geometry. We project away from the ground as we are standing. Plane geometry deals with strictly one dimension, but solid, is a very big world. Let me give you some ideas here. We are affected by outside forces as the touch or hit us. They will cause us to move in a determinable direction as well. however, now the big world, our body has joints and appendages that move separately from the rest of the body. So a strike to the center of the chest, for example would cause the opponent to move one way while a strike to the liver or spleen with the same force would cause the body to move differently.

When we are practicing on the mat, there are two ways to learn how a strike to a certain location would move our opponent. The first is to punch with full force. This however will tend to limit your workout partners I would think, or at least cause them to dwindle with time. The best way is simply to use your index and middle finger. you will not even have to use the full force to get the desired movement. This is a great lesson for lower and higher belts, to help them learn the complexity of solid geometry.

IN this world we also will make use of Trigonometry as well.

Play with it and give us your evaluation. I have used this for all my years in San Soo, studying the ways force and angle of attack, and the diminution of solid geometry effects where the opponent will be the next instant after I hit him.



Chuck

[Dave Lorenson]

  Master Cory,

This is a great lesson and a great thread - deep and rich.  As you well know, mathematics is the language of physics, so solid geometry is one of the methods of explaining what is happening in the physics of the attack and response cycle, as related to us in our 3-dimensional physicality.

What better way to understand how one would really move, then by feeling how I would move and how I would move someone else - without serious injury.  This is especially considering some of the more sensitive areas that we tend to strike.  A full force blow to some areas would end class for both people working out and potentially be fatal as well.

One thing that I liked in your post was your illuding to the effect of the limbs moving differently than the trunk.  This method is most effective in discovering just how the limbs might move from a strike with more force.  Most people will respond in a similar fashion to unexpected pain all along the scale of severity.  (Note: unexpected pain.  If someone is prepared, they will often not respond to small amounts of pain in the same way as if they were caused great amounts of pain.)
And...in class, we can illicit a close to natural response, even when our workout partner is prepared for the incoming strike(s), by the use of the 2 finger jab.

Thank you sir, I am enjoying the discussions!

With Respect,

David Lorenson


 

[ccory]

Thanks Dave, for years students and people used to ask me how I was always there and ready to attack again after I struck a blow. Now everyone knows, studing the body and its many movements under a stimulas. I guess I will no longer be able to use what I often said before: "It is all done with smoke and mirrors". Just kidding!

Chuck

[RonG]

When I went to Compton High School, (what a place) your biggest problem was getting back home alive so I never took classes on higher mathematics.  Even though we learned them in San Soo, I am not familiar with the terms and  formulas.
I have been thinking about it and have come up with some ideas on how Jimmy taught us and how he incorporated all of these levels which I will break into sections.
(1) This would be equal to  Basic Math or Algebra, starts with our Basic Eight, it is you and the ground= one dimensional.
(2) We then learned how to use triangular movement as a means to attack and uproot our opponent which would lead to the Geometry/Trigonometry portion= second dimension.
(3) He then applied all we learned to an all directional attack which was made of triangle, circles, squares, etc. which came from your ground root to a multiple attack using all parts of the body to strike, kick, leverage and throw= Physics.
(4) I do believe there is another level= Chi (fourth demension)

[Dave Lorenson]

Master Gatewood,

I like the comparison you did - it's a good way to think of progressions.  As far as Qi...it seems to me that rather than creating another dimension to our movement it is actually a method of increasing ones force within the 3 dimensional realm.  It is all about focusing and directing energy into different movement patterns or holding one's place with firmness.  There are, of course, many who would see differently (perhaps yourself), but from my current understanding there is nothing mystical about the concept of Qi, although many have promoted it in this manner.  Though not fully understood, probably by anyone - including Qi Gong masters, it is a matter of gathering and redirecting energy - one's own and that of others in close proximity.  And along with all other art forms, the more practice you get, the better you get at using it.

With Respect,

David Lorenson

[RonG]

I gave it a realm of it's own because most will not believe and most won't find it, I have not been able to come close to understanding it and most who show it are frauds.  I have felt some in situations that I have been in and I have felt it (unmistakably), from Masters who can issue it who are usually found in Monistaries.  One issued it in a hospital when I was paralyzed (with a broken neck), I could not see what or where he issued the energy but I knew/felt where he issued it, Barbara was at the foot of the bed and said he did not touch me, he only directed his palm and finger in those areas.  You can call me crazy but I know what I felt.  I always wondered if Chi existed but it made me a believer, there are thousands of Canadian nurses who now take classes and learn to issue energy by using "Healing Touch".
I was not there but I was told by those who were, one time Jimmy touched or slightly tapped Larry Wikel causing his arms to drop and become unusable. 
Of couse the true Master will become "one" and will bring it all to one demention, let me know when you get there.  heh heh

[ccory]

Guys we have not touched on the fact that solid geometry or our 3d projection from the earth is responsible for us being able to control opponents many more our size. Some of you have seen the pictures of Dean Murray 6 foot 6 and 285 lbs, yet he singed up to take lessons from me at a mere 5 foot 9 162 lbs at the time. Why, because I proved to him that his size and strength could be used against him and that I could teach him to use that size, weight to his advantage with a proper understanding of Solid Geometry and having to rely on strength alone.

I am sure Kenneth F. can chime in here on how he uses solid geometry to control opponents balance, (we have worked on controlling balance since his first private lesson with me) and I am sure a lot of you people out there can fill in a few lines about it. Dave L., Ron B. any thoughts.  I know you guys have a great understanding of solid geometry.

Chuck

[kfletcher]

Well it has been busy around here and I haven't posted in a little while. Chuck told on me it seems. I have been working on balance manipulation for awhile now and find it to be one of my favorite components in the art. I have also had the privilege of working with some great masters on this subject, like Chuck and Ron. The one thing about it is, some people may be better at describing it, but the good san soo fighters understand it in some way. Solid geometry is called three-dimensional, or 3D because there are three dimensions: width, depth and height. This pretty well describes everything we can touch including the human body. But how does it apply to fighting in a way that is easily understood. I'm only going to talk about a few components and hopefully some one else will join in. If an object is vertical, for descriptive purposes, it will have a center of balance. The object will be rooted to the earth or some other object at the base, unless it is "levitating" in some manner. If the object is manipulated by push, pull, fulcrum & levers, or whatever, it can effect the balance point. If the object is leaning in a direction different from vertical, it makes the object become unstable and susceptible to falling. If the object is shifted to far it will require force in some manner to prevent it from falling. If it is not shifted far enough it requires force to remain "tilted". And finally if the right amount of force is applied a new balance point can be established and the object can be held in the desired position with minimal effort. This works fine with an inanimate object. We realize if we push from the top it is easier to effect the balance and tilt the object than it is from the middle or base.However a human body is not inanimate or rigid. It is constantly moving, adjusting and using resistance and effort to maintain a comfortable balance point. So that would mean we want to use the upper portions of a person to affect their balance the easiest. Right? Not necessarily. The concepts of solid geometry allow us to look at the body from a 3 dimensional perspective. Because of the bodies natural movements, flexibilities, compensations etc. different movements affect the balance point in different manners. If I strike to your kidney to inflict damage and to manipulate your body for the next movement, it can position the body the same as striking or pushing to the shoulder to obtain the same arching backward movement. So can a strike to the knee, Achilles tendon, spine etc. There are different ways to obtain the same result. A way to learn and develop knowledge of them is to use the two finger approach Chuck described earlier with your training partner.
As I said earlier, the human body is in constant motion but the motions can become predictable in the hands of the right person. Remember Jimmy's quote " I take from you what I want". His knowledge of these concepts were an important component of this confidence. I want to start on one other thing and then I'm stopping for someone else. If the vertical object described earlier can be overextended and cause it to require effort and force to maintain an upright "secondary" postion, so will the human body. The human body is more complex but it can be manipulated to a "secondary" balance point just like the inanimate object. An example of this is being "back on your heels or up on your toes". Solid geometry can help us understand how to do this from different angles and positions. Dean was smart enough to realize if Chuck controlled his balance he could manipulate his movements and negate his strength advantage. Also if you look at the inanimate object  again, you realize the heavier it is, the more force it requires to move to a different balance point. If that point is lost it takes more effort to regain it. The same could be said for Dean or myself. If we are off balance it takes more energy to hold us upright for you or us. Take our balance and it is difficult to get it back. A good San Soo person can continue to shift your balance point and "control" their opponent with substantially less effort and more powerful results than attempting strength alone. They aren't attacking with direct force. Quite frankly not many people would win against Dean by using direct straight ahead force. The videos I have seen of him show him being very gracious with others and trying to help them understand this. Who's next?
Kenneth

[ThomPayson]

First of all I am glad to be part of the discussion. I want to mention that I personally saw Dean in action and watched as the much smaller Andre moved him around like he was 150 lbs. There were even some nice dents in the wall to prove it. I also wanted to mention that sometimes geometry kept in simple terms makes the biggest impact. For the past 28 years I have been teaching Womens Seminars across the country. And I will share that Chuck's teaching during a knife class in which he shows  how to "make your opponent part of you by bringing his body or limb into yours changes the physics and geometry of the situation. This one principal has helped me share that strength and size are not the great equalizer but rather physics. Thank you Chuck, I still share  your lessons with others.

[kfletcher]

Hey Thom,
You are right that is a excellent example for someone newer to the art. I use it quite frequently. Some of the concepts we are discussing on this thread though are more advanced and take practice to get really good at. The thing about that statement though, is when we are making their body part of us, it is usually affecting the other persons balance in some subtle way. If both people are an equal distance apart and in control of the same body parts, such as both having their left arms locked to each others, the  advantages equalize. If both people have the same stance, and all other variables are equal, the stronger person will win every time. The smaller person needs to uproot the larger persons center of balance or gain another advantage. It can be very subtle, but very effective, such as stepping forward slightly and causing the larger person to slightly shift back upon their heels. This gives the smaller person an advantage that is hard to overcome and helps neutralize their power. It is another option to a direct kick to the groin for instance.
If all things are equal except strength, the stronger person will usually win. That is where proper foundation, knowledge and creating advantages and using our mind become so important. All of the principles of the last couple of topics can help with this. Having a partner tell you when something won't work is also critical, so you can learn to make the adjustments that will make it work.
Kenneth

[RonG]

If you work out properly you develop "feel" which senses immediately if you have control, are off balance, etc.  It will correct automatically before your brain knows it.  Large people like power as it has always worked for them so they usually don't see the need for the things that are being discussed.  Half of the Art will allude them, some day they will become old, injured, sick, etc. and will need that knowledge but it will be too late.
I am so glad I learned long ago about these things because it has helped me since I broke my neck and most recently heart surgery, I can still defend myself and am working on getting better at it.
Nothing is ever equal, as Jimmy said "always think the guy knows more than you", to me that means to use every bit of knowledge (tactics, leverage, angles, or what ever) to beat him.  Those who follow pure power will someday find it will fail them.

[ccory]

Well said Ron and absolutely true as well!

Chuck