You Tube!

[RonG]

You Tube is a great thing to watch and learn many things, we can see other styles, how they work and how we can defeat them.  I have seen many great Arts and tactics and I learn something every day.  I have watched many San Soo ?? stylists, some have been around many years and much of what is posted is awful, IT IS NOT SAN SOO, at least not what I learned from Grand Master Woo.  It is lucky for them that he is not alive, I guarantee that he would embarrass them, real bad.
I saw only fragments of our Art mixed in with pure garbage which I would hate to TRY to defend myself in a life or death battle, most would not work.  There was twirling, twinkle toe jumping, spinning, lack of stance and balance, incomplete movement, lack of follow up and more than I care to write.
The worst part is that they seemed pleased at their performance, which makes me think that they don't understand good from bad Jimmy H Woo San Soo.
We are being laughed at by many fighters who have watched these videos, I have been asked, "I this for real"?  I can only answer, "It's not what I was taught".
We have a great Art, an Art that can stand against the best (if we are properly trained), and yes there is a slightly different way we must think along with tools we must add as times change but so must everyone else.  These threats were not around when we were learning so tactics needed were not practiced as much but they are in our arsenal and were used very little.

 

[kfletcher]

Master Ron,
Well said. Video is a great thing, but it can also be not so great in some situations. I have no doubt Jimmy would have strong responses for alot of the things that go on today.
We do have a great art. When I get those questions I use a simple reply. I just tell them it's not what I do and come to class one night to get a better idea of what we do here.
You are right San Soo can fit into any fight if applied properly. A couple of us have been asked if we do MMA. Our reply is no....we do San Soo. This was a San Soo Black Belt that was testing us and working in MMA. He didn't have the foundation we have and couldn't apply the art from many different positions like it is meant to be applied. Our belief is if you can do it on your feet, you should be able to do it on the ground. The triangles, angles, levers, fulcrums, targets etc. are still there. You just have to apply it a little differently and you have to practice it. The ground arts are great. They make chess players on the mat. We can too. San Soo has the tools. Whether or not we learn it properly and then can apply it is the real question. We also have to realize that the ground is their game. They train more for it and are generally alot better conditioned for it. We can't play around if we end up in that situation. We need to get out of there fast, before any traps are sprung that we can't deal with. Some of these moves when applied and locked in properly, don't have counters from certain positions. You're finished and San Soo didn't fail you. I know Chuck has said many times "Jimmy said don't play their games. Do San Soo" Learn it and apply it properly with the right attitude and mindset. Understand what can go wrong, then close the "windows" and become less vulnerable.

Kenneth

[martial_imaging]

Yeah, I totally agree.

This is a great topic and I'm glad Ron brought it up.  I, for one, have seen a lot of "San Soo" that has made it embarrassing to say I do the "same" art.  I DO NOT mean to say I am embarrassed I do San Soo.

As for dealing with MMA guys or other ground "fighters"...or in particular, people from other arts who want to "spar".  My take is...don't go there.  They don't want to workout and practice.  there's always some degree of testing skill for skill or art for art involved.  If I EVER have to use San Soo other than in a San Soo "school" with other San Soo guys it's for real.  No monkeying around with locks and holds or trying to out do those guys.  It's me or them...for keeps.  Many of them are very good at what they do, but so am I...so...like Jimmy used to say (as pointed out above), "I take care of you the best I know how".

Great topic!

Ron Bilow

[kfletcher]

Ron B,
You are totally right. There is more testing than I usually like to deal with. We've had alot of people interested in San Soo test it against their former art before fully commiting. It is usually alittle while after they start classes and just "want to see if they can stop this". We've spoken in private about this and we don't have the luxury of playing around with them. Most guys think they want a San Soo fighter to work stiff with them until it happens. The human body isn't meant for the abuse.  I've been invitied to other Kung Fu styles schools to "spar" and so forth. I politely decline.
My only reason for bringing up the other fighter is he was testing and we had answers. He looked elsewhere instead going deeper into what was already there.
He quit shortly after.
By the way, let me know when you get settled and find a place to work out. It's about time to come to Texas for a few lessons....and butt kickings.
Kenneth

[Dave]

I'm on this band wagon too.   The internet is great. So is video. We are lucky to have video available to us to study and analyze.  Prior generations did not.  I quit searching the Youtube videos a long time ago.  There is so much San Soo on there that I do not agree with. This is just an opinion and everyone has one.  The problem is that everyone wants to show it their own way. The other problem is that there are so many that want to share. Another problem is all that info conflicts with each other a lot of times.  Not all of it is bad, but to sift through all the rubbish just to find a gem is a waste of time and will leave most frustrated.  A big problem in my eyes is that most want to be a king in their own kingdoms. They want to be the one to teach a new idea or teach it in a way that is easier for them because they don't understand the original concepts that were (or weren't, in this case) taught. But everyone will tell you they are right, never wrong.

A big, big problem is the new students.  I have seen it numerous times....A new student joins a San Soo class and is so excited to join and totally pumped up about the art. We've all been there, and know what it's like.  The student then wants to get as much San Soo as possible and one of the first places he looks is the internet and YouTube.  The student then comes back to class and has so many questions, or sees something flashy and wants to try it. Sometimes they want to question their teacher as to why that looks so different as to what they are learning.  Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a student asking questions, but this can turn into a mess.  Others will agree with me.  I've said it once before, and I'll say it again. I would NEVER send any student to YouTube for instruction.  This process and bond between teacher and student should not be interrupted or tarnished from something like YouTube.

I love the way you think Ron (Bilow).  I totally agree. These ground guys and MMA guys train in their art, just like we train in ours.  I honestly think that  some San Soo guys are so threatened and feel inferior to some of these mixed MA guys that they have that "cant beat em, hell, I'll join em'' mentality. This is crap, and not San Soo.  I don't spar or wrestle around either. I feel threatened if someone asks me to do so. People that participate in horseplay do not take fighting or personal space seriously.  A famous San Soo Master once said, "There is no play time in San Soo, and I'm not your puppet. If you want to fight, then let's fight"

Kenneth, Dr. Ron and some of you other guys would agree with me that it doesn't take a genius to see the differences that (is it coincidence?) we all seem to notice between Old SS and...whatever it is we see now. I think we can agree that we are truly lucky to come from where we do and should do our part to preserve it. I know I will. I've learned and trained with some of the best, hands down.

Dave

[ThomPayson]

I too agree with all of you. In this age of TV fights and UFC many think that if you don't do MMA or JJ you don't know how to fight. My answer is simple, what a good San Soo practioner does in fact know, is how to fight and how to fight for real. I had the benefit in my younger days to work with Chuck's brother Bill and I can attest to fact that San Soo works in the streets, in the bars and where ever it is needed. Once you try to place the rules of organized sports and the limitations, what you would have would not be San Soo. I feel better that it wasn't just me who went to Youtube and saw the weak representation of our art. I always thought that keeping the San Soo family trees properly, and lineage that can be traced back to Jimmy would keep the integrity of the teacher and the art. Sad that it is not always the case.

[unstpabl1]

I would respectfully intrude on this and say that the subject of MMA vs san soo training and the the issue that was brought up recently in a rant by the Shawnee san soo guys, then me on another forum and now by Ron here are 2 completely different issues. Mixing them together changes the focus or at the very least muddies it. this is a prety important issue on it's own

Youtube and Website vids are extremely important now for the marketing of martial arts. It allows the potential student  to wade thru the conflicting styles and sales pitches and get a solid feel for the end result. The video's that you post will be scrutinized and even attacked but in most cases solid instruction of basic principles will be recognized by the intelligent student your looking for.

Now you may think marketing the art isn't a good thing to which I'd say that is a matter of degree. You still need interested students or the art disappears

I recently again started looking back to san soo. I tried it last fall again and quickly switched to krav. There were many reasons, but I was going thru chemo and wanted to really develope my strength and hit things and hit people who were trying to hit me!!! Twenty y/o were quiting class in the first 15 minutes. I was plugging thru. And I'm frikken proud of that and I earned much respect and support in that world. I'm very grateful as well. Doctors made me quit as it ended up knocking me down

Krav, kenpo and a lot of systems are broken up into at least 2 distinct areas. FIGHTING and SELF DEFENSE. At the last san soo school I was at they didn't seem to see the distinction between the two as kfss doesn't really do that. I do but that again would be another discussion and this subject is too important to You san soo guys to muddy up. While doing the self defense techs in krav I found that the san soo techs more natural and effective than just banging away at center mass. I started thinking in terms of old man martial arts. Not deragotorily, but as in not expending crucial energy. this has always made sense to me san soo wise and I do think very highly of this system.

The problem arises when trying to find instruction and instructors with a FOCUS on reality. I have a serious mentality, so I'm not sure where I might fit, but every potential student wants to know if its effective. And thats a hard thing to prove or disprove with any system. They also have one foot out the door and are looking at much conflicting information. It's up to instructors to understand this and show value

The web is a tremendous opportunity to share this system to people who really may need this. However, because of the non resistent and toally compliant partners it is very easy to go astray w/o a solid reality minded instructor.

I've come to the conclusion that when we talk about san soo on forums, we have a communication problem because we tend to see the art from our own perspective. We absolutely aren't seeing the same thing because we aren't looking at the same thing. As an aside a friend of mine and I were looking at a vid on our laptops and talking about it over the phone. We got in a huge arguement over where the other was standing in the freeze frame. Turned out I was a few frames ahead of where he was. We were  screaming at each other over the phone as we were editing something. We were looking at the same movie(art)  but seeing a different frame. we were both right but the context was wrong

I get the feeling thats how some of the divisions in san soo developed because I talk from time to time with masters who really don't seem to like each other but then when I hear it they are talking similar messages. It's like they are looking my different freeze frames, have a lot of passion for the art and are afraid of the watering down apparent in most videos posted but not seeing the same picture

My thing is this, the LORD OF THE DANCE type vids are extremely destructive to the art, But there is really no way to control them except by calling them out as unacceptable and not representitive of the system. Because if you don't, what happens is that, if you tell a lie often enough and offer enough visual proof, the lie becomes considered the truth.

Robert Resann posted a rant on youtube not about a particular vid but on the whole, that had been exactly what I had been thinking for weeks. Then I discovered a few others. Forgetting whatever personal issues any of you might have w/ Robert, he put himself out there and took the time to show and explain things. This took guts and showed how things were suppose to be. People have something now to put things into perspective bas opposed to just laughing at the art as a whole


I had never dissed a vid on youtube before but this was absolute BS to me. They called it BRILLIANT SAN SOO!!! I posted the vid I thought was actually the best of what they were offering. Then discovered they were selling them on line. So I kindly gave them free advertising. I got nothing against them personally, but I'm not involved in kfss and don't have to be political. Hopefully, I hope it brings them back to reality, because what their doing now seems extremely dangerous to their student and the art. Thankfully it wasn't my only exposure to kfss. I may have burned bridges in the community, but in the end it was the right thing to do

I think if you stay silent on stuff like this you empower it and then it becomes your own fault.

as I said you can't really control it, but you should stand up to it and the best way is through video responses or showing correct san soo and san soo concept videos up and running on your sites. You don't have to give the farm away, but you educate the uneducated and give perspective students and fans a correct paradigm to guide them. Then they can look for a school that won't lead them astray or worse

I apologize for the lengthy post as I haven't posted here in a long time. I had forgotten my password and have been limiting my postings in kfss forums. i hope it helps and is not seen as an unwanted intrusion

Be Well
MIKE

[kfletcher]

Hey Mike,
It’s good to hear from you. I didn’t know you were going through chemo and hope you are doing well. I’m going to try to address a few things and it may not be very popular…….but here goes. I’m aware of the video you and Ron G. make reference too. Unfortunately there have been numerous others over the years that have bothered me as much. Does this mean all of them are bad? Of course not.  Some of the videos of Jimmy and his workouts and teachings are priceless. Once again thank you is in order to Robert, Cap, Jon, San Soo Jedi (I think Rich Smith…but could be wrong) and others for this wonderful contribution to our art. I agree with Dave that the total volume of videos can be very confusing to a new student.  I generally recommend certain ones that I know are high quality and tell them to not go much further because of conflicting information. I agree when a student is fresh and developing their foundation, it is best for them to stay with one instructor and develop their bonds and foundational needs before “branching out” too far. It can be very confusing for some.
You said
  “I would respectfully intrude on this and say that the subject of MMA vs. san soo training and the the issue that was brought up recently in a rant by the Shawnee san soo guys, then me on another forum and now by Ron here are 2 completely different issues. Mixing them together changes the focus or at the very least muddies it. this is a prety important issue on it's own”.
In regards to some videos, I think I said Jimmy would be pissed and I didn’t like it either. I was speaking more in generalities than specifics about any one video. Frankly there have been many offenders in my mind. I’ve said this privately and on an open forum previously. Jon, Robert, Cap, the Shawnee guys and of course yourself, have been handling the situation as you saw fit from your end. I was responding to Ron G’s post and agreeing without intruding “on your dance”. The MMA came to my mind after Ron G said “We have a great Art, an Art that can stand against the best (if we are properly trained), and yes there is a slightly different way we must think along with tools we must add as times change but so must everyone else.  These threats were not around when we were learning so tactics needed were not practiced as much but they are in our arsenal and were used very little”. I do agree with Ron on this subject. The rest of my response I think followed in suit to this statement and drifted away from your referenced post. I still visit American San Soo and find some interesting reading. I wasn’t addressing anything directly on their site or anyone’s video though. I think perhaps you thought the thread was meant as a parallel thread.
You said “The problem arises when trying to find instruction and instructors with a FOCUS on reality. I have a serious mentality, so I'm not sure where I might fit, but every potential student wants to know if its effective. And that’s a hard thing to prove or disprove with any system. They also have one foot out the door and are looking at much conflicting information. It's up to instructors to understand this and show value.” I agree. Once again though, I can only say look at our class a few nights, ask questions and if it feels comfortable to you give it a try. If you have more questions ask. We’ll answer anything. They’re have been times certain things have been questioned and we could tell it would have to be applied with more intent to be accepted. We do this in a controlled manner also. We bring mouthpieces and boxing gloves and make the partners try to hit each other while working blocks some nights. Our blocks work, but if you’re making a mistake, getting hit will bring it to the surface. It is also great for building confidence in some people. We strongly emphasis reality training, strategies and the consequences of what we do.
I was referring to other instances. They aren’t unique to us. They are everywhere and even Jimmy had to deal with people “testing” from time to time. We’ve had people not asking questions but “trying to test” by surprising someone during a workout. We’ve had people try to test Masters on the mat. One even tried to sucker punch an instructor. After they were “handled” he was excited and wanted to be taught. That was his method for “seeing if it worked”. He was asked to leave and was very lucky he could do it on his own power. If you do that to an upper belt and they react reflexively you can get hurt very easily. I think the discussion drifted that way in my mind and the fact that they must be taken seriously.
I wish you could have worked in the Nashville area with some of us or at any of Chuck’s schools Mike. I think you could have found a home and enjoyed your time more with San Soo. I appreciate your recognition of its merits and your willingness to defend it. However, as you know, things can be rather difficult at times. There isn’t a formal sanctioning body. Some Masters don’t get along and everyone has access to You Tube. If we attack each other it deepens the divide. If we don’t respond to negatives, it also has a negative impact. There are really no simple answers. Perhaps the divides are too deep. There really is a lot to discuss in a single forum response. Everyone has their own place in this discussion. Don’t think I’m complacent or don’t want to address it. I’ve just learned over time I can’t fix everything so I focus on what goes on in the Nashville area. The top belts don’t put up with much here. You guys were handling it, so I left it to you. If you need help…….then I’ll help. You’re right, the video didn’t show San Soo as I’ve learned it.
Salute,
Kenneth
By the way, Chuck and I have been discussing adding many more videos for awhile now. I believe it is coming very soon. Hopefully everyone will enjoy.

[unstpabl1]

Hey Kenneth. Thank you for the good wishes.

I get where you were coming from on the mma debate. It is a very important discussion and a very interesting type of debate LOL and even a necessary one I think. I'm not judging that it came up. I'm just trying to hone into and keep this on Focus. And my reasons are to a degree self serving as I think I want to train in this, under the right circumstances LOL and also because I know the potential of this training. Unfortunately, I see the pitfalls.

The main reason is this. I have never posted a harsh critique bon youtube. Yes it was deleted, but even what I wrote wasn't mean spirited, more incredulous questioning . The Shawnee guys posted about the general videos coming. I was specific and put myself out there for more ridicule and disdain. But I'm not looking to step on anyones toes. I am looking for positive ways to combat the dilutting of the art.  I'm nottrying to put these guys down, but saying get back to combat. You've gone astray. And that goes for everyone who may be straying from fundamentals, which is whee the mma debate starts

I know it becomes a student retention problem to some degree to focus on basics, but more than likely in a fight the basics will be what you'll rely on. All the sexy cool moves may be fun and may attract a certain element to the "ART", but will turn off those looking for a reality "COMBAT" system. I get the feeling that was Jimmy's and the originators of the systems FOCUS. I think The Shawnee guys, The American San Soo forum, Master Gatewood and now I an outsider are simply saying we better get back on FOCUS or we're going to sink the ship

I'm also not saying you have to start net fights because that gets old fast, but people have to step up. I thjink Ron did a put himself out for some criticism, but I think he did it because he knows it was the right thing to do. I don't have anything at stake, but everyone else commenting on them does and should be supported.  And "Hopefully" it actually HELPS the other guys get back "ON FOCUS"

IMO, which shouldn't have  weight but should t least be heard,, I think it is extremely important that guys like Chuck, Ron, Larry Wikel, Sharon, Jack etc put up content and maybe VLOG once in a while to set the paradigm.  Its a PIA, but take a day, grab a beer and surf san soo vids, and you'll get my point

I wanna be in that San Soo class Where they bring mouthpieces and glove and work on entrances, I've been advocating that for years..sigh But Tennesse is a bit of a commute from North Hollywood. Unfortunately, I heard about Chuck after he left, but maybe it gets us on track hearing about drills like that

Anyway, I hope you guys consider posting stuff and understand I'm not trying to drag you guys down into the depths of muddy waters and egos like guys who write things Like " When your good like those guys are, you don't have to worry about what the other guy is going to do. He has to worry bout you" mentalities. Its the opposite, I'm hoping it'll uplift the art somehow....

[kfletcher]

Hey Mike,
I knew your intentions are good and respect that. Unfortunately, "it's a king in his kingdom."I don't know how to fix it. We're going to have some videos up soon. Hopefully, it will be worthwhile. You are right about the basics. They are what will save your hide in a real fight. You are also right about Ron. He puts himself out there and still cares a great deal. I have alot of respect for that. The Shawnee guys care too. It's obvious they are frustrated with some things. We just have to be careful how we approach it or people will dig in their heels and step further backwards. It's very complicated. The other thing we have to remember is video can be misleading at times. You get lazy or have a bad day or the camera angle is off and it can really give a wrong impression. Everyone should think of that before posting. We've got to be more careful with what is posted.
Best Wishes,
Kenneth

[unstpabl1]

Absolutely video can be misleading.  And that is a big point about quality control on what your posting and what the message your trying to send. In most cases you can't do much about the other guy, but to make sure your showing quality.

Mark Colby puts out some really well thought out videos as well. Him and Shawnee had a few exchanges on youtube. They got together and found out they had more in common than not. Looking at the same movie but different frames at a time maybe

Appreciate your input and looking forward to your videos

[RonG]

I sometimes wonder why I still search for knowledge at my age but it seems I can't stop, well tonight I was surfing the net with intent and came across a portion of an article that I would like to share.  It is from an old Black Belt Magizine written by a firearms expert Louis Awerbuck.  The issues discussed are of the many we have discussed here, the wisdom he gave is what it is all about.
Enjoy,
RG


Four decades earlier, I’d had my first epiphany. An acquaintance who’d reached third dan in karate was severely beaten in a one-on-one encounter with an uncouth, untrained, middle-aged farmer. Mild-mannered by nature, he was forced into using physical force at a gas station, despite several attempts to avoid the confrontation. When I later asked him what had happened, he humbly—and he was a humble man—said the farmer was “too stupid” to make the “correct” countermoves. The latter caught him with a wild roundhouse swing, ruptured his eardrum and destroyed his balance. End of fight.

Moral of the story? If you train in a dojo with people who are very good at what they do—but are robotlike and predictable in their physical movements, the result of “rules of engagement”—you could very well lose on the street to a physically less competent and untrained opponent. Rule No. 1: Never, ever, ever underestimate your opponent, and psychology is huge.

Over my adult life, I’ve been fascinated by the science of fighting, from Roman boxers to Genghis Khan, from medieval archers to Sun Tzu, from the use of gunpowder by the Chinese to John Wesley Hardin’s gunfighting skills. The one constant is that the good fighters were philosophers first and physical performers second.

Of the best of the best, two names that are familiar to readers of Black Belt are Miyamoto Musashi and Bruce Lee. Although their fields of expertise were different, their mind-sets were the same. They may have been separated in life by centuries, but both were probably the ultimate philosophers of their eras. Extremely deep thinkers, they flew in the face of convention, they were artists and prolific writers, and their true genius came to light basically only after their passing—essentially because they were so far ahead of their time and so far above the average person’s level of thinking. Musashi’s use of two swords and Lee’s evolutionary punching and kicking techniques were so misunderstood by most of their peers that they were acknowledged primarily only in retrospect and hindsight.

“When the legends die, the dreams end; and when the dreams end, there is no more greatness.”
—Anonymous

We cannot afford to let the dreams end. We have to start to recognize legends while they’re still around.

During a recent conference in Los Angeles, I was fortunate to once again observe Allen Joe’s seminar on muscle training and breathing techniques. Intrigued, I observed the participants’ faces when he demonstrated eye exercises, wondering how many of them understood what he was getting at. He didn’t elucidate on the subject, stating only that all the body’s muscles must be exercised.

The exercises, of course, are age-old techniques to open up peripheral vision so the swordsman could have full visual on a tri-pronged attack. But Mr. Joe didn’t elaborate—the great ones never do. They rightly expect the student to think for himself, to mentally extrapolate on the master’s words. If you don’t understand why the great Asian warriors practiced calligraphy and horticulture, you probably aren’t ever going to be a true practitioner of the martial arts. Even to only stand in the shadow of men like Bruce Lee, you have to be first and foremost a student of philosophy, and not merely ape their physical movements. Otherwise, you’ll never get the total message.

Most people today—martial arts students or not—are familiar with John Steinbeck’s words from The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights: “The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.”

Yes, we’ve all heard the words, and we all repeat them. But how many of us actually practice what we preach?

No brain, no gain.

[ccory]

Mike, it is good to read your thoughts again. I will share with you something the Grandmaster once said to me after visiting several schools after he had retired the Jimmy H. Woo Associates and we started the International Kung Fu San Soo Association of which Ron Gatewood and I were both members of the Standards Committee for the IKFSSA.
He said after riding with me over halfway to North Hollywood that day without saying a word, to be a part of our Degree ceremony, after a long silence he ask me

"Chuck What are we going to do? I ask what do you mean Jimmy? He replied "I have visited several schools and I don't know what they are teaching." The only thing I could say was "I don't Know Jimmy, I don't have an answer for you".

It bothered him back then that San Soo would change and not be taught as he passed it on to us.

You are right though,

Chuck

[RonG]

Chuck,
Americans tend to want immediate gratification, learn by power, want immediate belts, carry rank without knowledge depth, become Masters of many Arts, try to combine to make highbred and eclectic Arts that no one else possesses.
Most are unwilling to spend the time and effort to learn the wisdom passed on by the founders, if they can apply power and strength they believe the know it all.  The result is only a small portion of learning is transferred to them but the sad part is that they don't know the difference.
Jimmy knew this, he started by teaching in depth and then backed off of much of the classical Kung Fu because that is not what most wanted to learn.  We had to ask over and over to get him to share some of that knowledge, some he never did.
When we think that we know it all, it can be quite humbling to meet someone who knows much more than we do, makes one feel they are still in grade school, been there, done that.

[ccory]

You are so right Ron!

Chuck