Attempting to show a technique to a friend who is not in San Soo

[ccory]

Let's talk about showing or attempting to show a technique to someone you know, but do not want to hurt them. What is everyone's thoughts. Can we, should we, how should we if we should, why not if we should not. I will weight in as we develop this topic and let you know how I feel about this topic.

Chuck

[Nicholas]

Good question! I am bombarded most every week by students ( I am a high school teacher ) about San Soo. It is always "Show me something" I usually show them a few escapes and joint locks and then make an offer for them to come by the San Soo club we have after school and watch.  A lot of kids have boxing and other martial arts experience but they appreciate the no nonsense approach of San Soo. As far as hurting someone goes, I teach in Hungary, it is like being 50 years behind the US in litigation and such. Twisting a kids arm or punching in the solar plex. is not looked at as a crime if they ask for a lesson or question was presented. In fact, If you get hurt in a martial art class it's your own damn fault. So don't complain.

Generally I am careful and really consider the person. Is he or she meek, tough, weak or strong. What kind of personality does that person have. I do not get aggressive with those that are frightened but show them how to do the moves on me! I want to empower them and give a little confidence.

Hope that is something along that you had in mind!

[ccory]

Fantastic Nicholas, I wish things were like that here in litigation. it was that way once and San Soo was more respected then as the powerful art that it is.

Chuck

[ThomPayson]

Good Question Chuck, As you know I have specialized my teaching in women's self defense seminars and have been offering them since 1982. It is my feeling that it is much easier to show some of the principals of our art rather than show specific techniques to those who have no training. What I mean is the principal of making your opponent part of you, great for a hair grab  or knife to the throat. Show the power from a simple half horse and how by moving inside your opponent and holding on to them you can use their body as a tripod affect allow you to lift your knee to strike and keep balance. I have found that easier than showing techniques. So the short answer would be that although I have been asked, I always found I had to kind of dumb it down for the person if they haven't seen it and it wasn't really San Soo. It seems I always have a story that goes with your questions but this one actually fits the topic. I worked many years as a Manager in the car business and some of the guys new I had trained. They always asked me to show them something and I never did. They also wanted to horseplay and I never did. One evening on the showroom floor on of the guys came up behind me while I was talking to the GM no less and grabbed me and spun me around towards him. Without thinking I hit him in the groin, really there was zero thought time what so ever. He spent the next 5 minutes rolling around on the floor. I felt terrible and really thought I should have controlled myself better, but he caught me by total surprise. I was deep in thought and was focusing oh my boss. Well after that incident there were no more requests for the horseplay or to show techniques. I always felt the proper place for that was in the studio or at a planned event.

[Dave Lorenson]

Thom,
That's a good story, it was a hard lesson for your co-worker, but it will definitely make him think the next time.  Obviously, most of us do not wish to show off or cause pain needlessly. 

I had a similar incident in a hospital I used to work at.  There was a co-worker who always wanted to goof around and I refused.  One day, as I was walking down a corridor at a pretty fast pace, he jumped out from the side, pretending to have a knife in his hand.  It was very fortunate that I didn't seriously hurt him.  He did, however, get the point as he looked at me wide-eyed with my hand gripping his throat, his "knife" hand and head slammed against the wall and my knee on the way.  Fortunately for him I recognized what was going on and stopped the initial response while under way.  We never had to have this discussion again.

I really like how you expressed demonstrating principles to interested persons and staying clear of "horseplay".

With Respect,

David Lorenson

[ThomPayson]

Chuck I wanted to share this quick story with you and the board regarding principals you taught in the knife class. I was teaching a one hour seminar at the Air Tel Plaza hotel. The seminar  helps people create a plan so they are not selected as victims of crime. At the end I presentation I show just a couple of principals using my wife in order to help move them to the three hour class. Now Chuck, believe it or not one of the MOST compelling things you taught me that I pass on is this: If a person should come up from behind and hold a knife to your throat that by simply bringing that hand into your body "making it part of you" that they can not cut you. Very simple and effective. I showed the demo using my wife. She kept me from cutting her and then she countered and escaped. A very large man stood up and said it was Bullsh$t that he could easily cut her throat. She accepted the challenge and I sweetened the pot. I told him that if he were able to cut her throat with this wooden knife I would give him $100.00 cash on the spot. But.. if he didn't that he would have to tell every woman he knew to come to my class and bring at least 5 or pay for that amount. He thought it was a fair deal. He came up, my wife made his arm part of her body and well you know the rest. He lifted her, pulled her hair and still couldn't do it. Finally my wife told him it was time to stop or she would have to fight back. He let her go and the rest is history. The bottom line is don't take the very simple principals we learn for granted, they are very powerful.

[ccory]

Great! That makes me feel like I have been helpful during my years in the Art.

Chuck

[khpro]

I only show people if they ask to be shown.  I have shown breaking a grip or going from a grab.  I don't go any further than that outside of class.  My response to show more is an invitation to come to class and they can see a lot more.

When I do show, I show them so they're doing it to me.  I think this is important so they understand it's not trickery and they start to get the sense that this is something they can do.  The only thing left is their "want to."

[Dave]

I'll agree with Kenny,

I would only show a technique on someone only if they wanted to know. Even then I would be a little hesitant.  I would be very careful what I show.  Maybe a grab technique or something would be ok, but an advanced leverage would not be.  I would even be hesitant to show an advanced leverage on a new white or yellow belt of mine.  They just aren't ready for that yet, let alone showing something like that on a stranger or someone who does not understand these techniques.

I am a firm believer in showing techniques only in a class setting where the teacher is just that,.. the teacher. And whoever is learning is the student. There is a time and place for this and it's not just on anybody anywhere.  Even if you think the person is cool or a non threat, if you start cranking their wrist until it hurts, more than likely they will not only resist but get offended that you are displaying your power. But just understand that in order to show a technique correctly, especially a San Soo technique, you must cause some kind of pain or discomfort unless someone knows how to move with it. That's just the nature of the beast.

The whole teacher/student relationship is built on trust. You trust each other with your bodies and your health.  This trust is just not there with a stranger off the street. Even if you have known someone for a while, that teacher/student trust is just not there yet.  People don't know where you are coming from if you start cranking their joints and twisting their bones to cause pain. Let alone throwing someone over your shoulder!  People react very differently. And I think you will be very surprised at the reactions of people when you go around showing techniques.  I'm not saying it's going to be bad every time. It could be good more time than not, but I personally don't think so. 

I would only show techniques on someone that has been trained the same way I have. Not only is it going to look better to the naked eye because the person I am doing the technique on is going to move well so you can show the technique at close to full force, but you are less likely to hurt someone and people watching will get the most out of your efforts as opposed to telling someone that has never had the technique done on them to relax and just go with it.  Either you cause them pain and hurt them or you are just left telling them, " trust me, even though it doesn't hurt, it will work if you do it on the street."   I say bullshit.  This is not professional at all to me.

I think demo's work great for the reasons I explained and if someone wants to learn, they can come to class in the correct environment and pay for lessons just like I had to. I think you will gain more students this way than not. It is my personal opinion that this is the better way.

But just remember.  If you are prepared to show a technique on someone, you had better know what you are doing!  Not only to protect the person you are doing it on, but to protect yourself.  There will always be someone out there that wants to challenge you and prove that you are wrong.  Talk is cheap.  You had better be prepared for anything. 

[ccory]

Kenny and Dave both are good approches to the question.

Chuck

[Rodcore]

Well Chuck, first of all let me say that as someone who is not a regular contributor here, hope you don't mind my response...but I think the topic question was showing someone a technique who is a FRIEND, not so much an acquaintance or co-worker...am I correct?

Most of my friends are martial artists or have studied some sort of art before.  If I am asked by them to show them something, I try to make it something that's not going to cause pain, but usually a fellow martial artist (or someone who's studied previously) wants to know if what you're being shown works or not and that usually involves at least a little pain.  I just warn them in advance, or if they're just curious about the art tell them some things regarding principles.  More often than not though, since we are not a sport art they can see or get a feel for, they want to be shown something.

There are so many aspects to this art, it's almost to me hard to figure out what to show...actual techniques?  Surprise and sudden attack?  Most seem to want to see MMA related stuff like chokes and holds, or how to escape them.  Any question I've been asked in the last few years about san soo usually relates first to how we fare against that type of stuff first, which is funny to me because it should be in relation to how we'd fare in street warfare.

There is a fed-ex driver who is an MMA specialist, and when he tried to put some holds on me I actually surprised myself with some of his responses.  After trying a few times he finally gave up...but he still wasn't ready to sign up or check out san soo.  I told him this was laughable to me because almost all of my instructors had always told me if I found something better to go with it!

[ccory]

Rod good to see you hare. The question is for showing co-workers and people you do not know well. Most friends who know us well, have seen us work out and know better than to try to counter something. I am not surprised about the MMA guy though. I is hard to decide to make a change even if you like the new Art better.

I always like to show a simple escape from a hand grab to the wrist, and then show them how just trying to imobilize a wrist holding a knife can be deadly to them if the person knows that simple technique. I tell them in the movies the good guy and bad guy fight a 10 minute sceen and then the good guy finely wins. But as I show them, in real life this is not true. I also show them the advantages of keeping your eyes on your opponent, by saying look over your and when they do, I lightly slap them and say always keep you eyes on everyone, you just saw how fast someone can hit you if you are distracted. Then I go into the old grade school pranks, "you shoe is untied", "who is that behind you?" ETC. I then tell them that distraction is an old street fighter technique to allow them to get in the first punch and in many cases that could be all it takes. They leave with two pieces of important information they just obtained for free and they have just discovered it works!

As you mentioned, we have always been taught, if you find something better, by all means take it instead!

Chuck

[khpro]

I like the reference to "in the movies."  I find it kind of strange how so many people can determine that the way people move in movies is fake...even the Matrix.  But if they're doing martial arts and it doesn't get too weird with special effects, they accept it as reality.  That perceived reality is what they use to develop their expectations from martial arts.

A guy told me "I saw Bruce Lee...."
Me: "You mean you saw him do that in a movie?"
Him: "Yeah!"
Me: "You know who gets to play in movies, right?  Actors."
Him: "Huh?"
Me: "His job was to make the best movies he could make.  He did Wing Chung too, but when he was on camera, his primary concern was to make great movies."

You'd had thought I just told him there was no Santa Claus.

[ccory]

You are so right. You would think you just told them the easter bunny died.

Chuck