question about 12 basics

[kronic_frenzy]

This question might be a littlehard to ask without a visual but I'm gonna ask it the best I know how.
  While doing the 12 basics and imagining the cross under you, at any point is a part of your body NOT supposed to be in the center of that cross? More specifically a foot at the very least.
   Now I understand you should start and end in the same place, but my question is geared more towards if you should at any point not be touching that starting position, if that makes sense?
  Any help would be greatly appreaciated.


 Thanks  steve

[saxyjeff]

Steve,

Doing the 12 Basics (or any san soo form) when using a cross taped on the ground you'll always have at least one foot (two if you are coming back to center with both feet to strike from there, or to bow or close the form).  In the 12 basics (as you already know now) you start with both feet together then movement #1 (depending on which foot you start with; lets just assume you are left side for now) you open with left outward crescent kick to the south ending with in a full left horse stance with the left foot coming to rest in the southern arm of the cross (if you will).  At this point there is no way your body proper can be directly over the actual intersection of the horizontal or vertical axis' (the 'X' if you will). 

This will be the same for every move where a foot lands on a part of any direction arm away from the center-point (the intersection), whether you are stepping with your left or right foot.  The only time your body is truly "over" the center-point (we just call it 'center') is when you are either ending in a kickstance for a kick or strike or bow/close;rarely in a lt/rt flat-footed stance, if ever.  The only other time your body is directly over center is when you are "transitioning" from one stance to another.  An example would be from the same left opening 12 basic stance, the first time this occurs is from step #3 (left 1/2 horse facing south) to step #4 (left cross-stance with left leg over right leg, body still facing west). From step #3 to step #4 the left foot travelled from a point away from centerline on the left arm of the cross "back to the center point" (now both feet and the body is now directly over centerline/point) and then we cross over and place the foot to an equal distant point (equidistant for any of you mathfreaks that STILL remember a thing or two from geometry; this is all I remember...lol...oh yeah and equilateral triangle) on the right arm during which the body now "leaves" its directly perpendicular position over centerline as it continues the move, shifting naturally to the North.

Now Grasshopper, with that information can you tell us what other steps transition through center and which moves end on center?  If you can do that then I know you 'got' it and then you, My Future San Soo Instructor, can teach it to someone else, like your new training partner when you find them.  Chuck liked to use the adage to us: "Watch One, Do One, Teach One" too.

Also, if you havent already purchased them, get the Form I & II tapes from Chuck.  These are great.

Hope that was helpful.


Jeff

[Chuck Cory]

Yes Steve movement #9 you are stepping to the back along the horizontal line to the apex of the triangle and then pivoting to a kick stance facing front again and immediately stepping back with the same foot to the centerline. This is the only time you take yourself off of centerline. I did not mention right or left foot as you know, that would depend on which side you open on.

Chuck

[kronic_frenzy]

  WOW!!!!

   I didn't expect such a quick response but thanks very much, both answers were quite informational!

  Chuck,  you make an excellent point with the #9 movement, that is exactly what I was looking for. That would be the only time a person would move away from the center/ starting position, but then again i suppose that's why you wear a Red Sash  ...

   thanks for the timely responses.

If he's bigger hit him while he's looking the other way!

[martial_imaging]

Not to confuse you...but I've seen the 12 basics taught with a "variation" from what I learned from Chuck.  Some people lunge off their center when going out to the horse stance on #4.  I found it awkward when I spent a little time in their schools.  They don't recenter until they get to move #4 opening on the opposite side.  To me, it's wrong...partly because I was not taught to do that, but also because it contradicts everything else I've learned about forms, basics and San Soo in general.  These guys I'm referring to are from Al Rubin's lineage - I'd like to hear Chuck's comments on this.

Ron

[San Soo Sifu]

Some people lunge off their center when going out to the horse stance on #4.  I found it awkward when I spent a little time in their schools.  They don't recenter until they get to move #4 opening on the opposite side.  To me, it's wrong...partly because I was not taught to do that, but also because it contradicts everything else I've learned about forms, basics and San Soo in general.  These guys I'm referring to are from Al Rubin's lineage.

Hello Ron,
Hey, here is a video clip of the late Master Al Rubin doing the horse stances at an Association meeting, I believe at Covina, California (Master Bob Estrada's studio); circa 1985 or 1986?  Now, please keep in mind that Master Al Rubin is simply going through the motions (the stances) in a relaxed manner, and not trying to do them picture perfect since he is hanging out with his peers.  However, maybe you can point out what it is that you don't like about what he is doing; or what he might be doing incorrectly?  Because I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by your written description above?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd9HC4WqTR0

[Chuck Cory]

Yes, the movement is pulling to a kick stance and then lunging forward and coming off center line. Most of the first generation Instructors I knew that did the basic 12 (and some only had a basic that way all had a Woolsey Linage as I recall. These people all claimed they learned it that way from Woolsey. I do not recall anyone saying they got it from Jimmy, but we did not discuss it much. Each Instructor taught it the way they were taught. The way I was taught, by Jimmy was staying on centerline as you do in a form.

The Basics is for teaching your students their stances, so the end product is still the same regardless of how they did it. Teaching your students their basic stances.

Chuck

[martial_imaging]

Hey Jon,

I haven't had a chance to check out the clip until now, and I can't get to it from this computer (access denied).  Anyhow, I should probably retract the term "wrong".  It's just not the way I learned to do it, and it feels very awkward to me - maybe because I did the exercises for so many years without lunging away from my centerpoint.  I still want to check out the clip.  Al was a great San Soo master, and I'd like to see him doing the movements.

Ron

[martial_imaging]

Hey Jon,

Very interesting video indeed!  For one, I did not see Al Rubin lunge OFF his centerpoint like I've seen some of his students teach.  Another thing I found interesting is the when he went to the cross stance, he stepped East.  I was taught to step to the South with my cross stance.  Also, I noticed he did a couple of the moves in a different order than I learned from Chuck, and he left one movement out.

Chuck do you have any additional comments about that?

Ron

[saxyjeff]

Jon,

That was a great clip.  It was incredibly refreshing to see a group of great masters candidly sharing and comparing notes.  Bill was mentoring.  I think that old clip, more than anything, accurately depicts the great disparity regarding terminology from one school to the other.  THEY ALL had different terms...some of them had different kicks than I'd learned but the end result was the same.  I think this is another reason that Laosifu made comments about how after he was gone San Soo would be unrecognizable in a few generations, though the only thing different here was the communication..but i guess it starts somewhere. 

Funny how these 1st Generation Masters all had some different ideas about some things, in addition to the similarities.  I thought it was great and I also want to add that we disciples of Chuck should not forget that there are others out there that have a great foundation, granted we all tend to have our preferences with Chuck too. 

Ron,

Having come from an Al Rubin lineage school to greenbelt (that's right, I showed up with that thing when I discovered No Ho) I was very familiar with that basic foot form.  I even have it written out somewhere in detail and saw it only last month.  I'll find it and scan it and post it/email it to you.  Yes it was different than the foot form Chuck taught me/us later but like he (Chuck) said it's just an means to an end and everyone winds up on the same page (hopefully).


Great Stuff!


Jeff

PS- Hows that baby coming along?

[kfletcher]

"Funny how these 1st Generation Masters all had some different ideas about some things, in addition to the similarities.  I thought it was great and I also want to add that we disciples of Chuck should not forget that there are others out there that have a great foundation, granted we all tend to have our preferences with Chuck too."
Great point Jeff. I'm glad you added that.

Kenneth

[Dave]

Yeah,
Us at the "Bat Cave" do the exercise form, which is a different variation of the 12 basics with hand movements added that came down through Andre Salvage (I beleive). I also learned a version with my time with Master Larry Wikel at his school. But they are all pretty much the same thing, as far as the foot movements and motions go. Just a little variation. I also would not use the term "wrong" to describe any of the methods either, as I would agree that they all would take you to the same place ultimately.

[Chuck Cory]

The basics you saw Al Rubin do have the Woolsey influence in them. They called them the basic eight. I do not know if Woolsey learned them from Jimmy that way or not.

I know Ben Brandt and I discussed the basics once and he showed me the basic 8 he taught his students.

Once again, I think the outcome is the best way to look at it. We all arrive at the same thing, better and proper stances.

Chuck

[San Soo Sifu]

I'll find it and scan it and post it/email it to you.

Hey Jeff,
That reminds me of something I asked you on the old San Soo Tennessee message board, but it was like only a couple of days before it was taken down; so you might not have had a chance to see it.

Anyway, on the old San Soo Michigan message board, you had posted a link to a public documents briefcase of yours, where you had stance sheets uploaded.  I downloaded those copies of the stance sheets, when you had first provided the link.

You also had some hand written notes of your own (on yellow legal paper, I believe), where you had read / heard / studied on how to link the smaller monthly forms into the longer annual form.  For some reason, I never downloaded your hand written notes.  (Just call me a dummy.)

Anyway, I have been interested in linking the forms together for an annual form, and I wish I had downloaded your notes, but alas; I didn't.  So, could you please either provide the URL link to where you have these documents stored (assuming you still have them there)?  Or, could you scan and email me a copy of your hand written, yellow sheet notes?  Thank you for your time, effort, and consideration.

[Justin]

I must be honest and say I don't remember doing this much in North Hollywood.  But when I moved to England and started training with Master Brad Sirott he works it with his class and teaches move 4 as a lunge.  That means you move off centre for the first half and wind up back on centre after the second lunge (move 13).  I subsequently did the same with mine as it is a good basic exercise for lower belts (and upper belts!). 

Looking for validation I turned to the old Black Belt Manuals.  When you look at the first half horse in move 2 it is referred to as an An Do Ma Stance, while the same picture of a half horse in move 4 is referred to as a Deam Ma Stance.  That implies to me that there is a lunge, or at least something different to a standard half horse, even if it can't be seen in the picture.

As a side note, those drawings clearly don't show that the front knee is sufficiently bent (see the other thread on half horses).  It's interesting, and makes you wonder whether it's intentional or artistic.

Respectfully,

Justin