Proper Horse Stance

[Chuck Cory]

Well here is another question for everyone out there. What is a proper horse stance and what is the proper distance in length for a horse stance?

I will start by answering the second half of this question. There is no standard length for a half horse. The stance of a person standing 5ft 9in will be shorted than the stance of a person 6ft 2in.

1. It is a matter of comfort. The stance should enable you to move quickly in any direction you can move without having to shift your weight to one leg to be able to move. (60/40%) Too long a stance plants your weight solidly on the ground. Although this will allow you to deliver power when you punch, it also inhibits your maneuverability. Too short a stance will not give you adequate rooting to the ground and make your stance less stable. So you can see it takes a happy medium to enable both stability, speed and maneuverability.
2. If your stance is to short, you will normally notice that the muscles in the thigh have to work harder and you will feel them more than you should. So going back to number one,  It is a matter of comfort.

If anyone has anything to add to the length of the horse stance, please feel free to jump in. I will be reading to see what everyone posts for the first part of this question.

Chuck

[Dave]

Ive seen different variations of the same thing. Ive always been taught comfort as well. But I think there are some things that just need to happen for a proper horse stance. For half horse Your weight should be centered, not leaning forward or back. Ive seen different variations being practiced and taught regarding front knee bend and the direction of front foot pointing. Some dont want to see any of there front toes when they look down. their knee should bend enough to where they dont see their toes. Some like to see just the tips. Just a matter of preference i guess. Also, some point their front toes forward while others are pointed at 45 degrees (give or take) like the back foot. If your in L horse then both feet would be cocked to the right the same. Some turn the back foot (which is ALWAYS correct) but leave the front pointed forward. I wont dispute either, because one might work better for some. YOur weight should always be center, your back leg should always be locked and your shoulders should always be square so if you hold your arms out straight in front, they should be even. I personally turn both my front and back feet evenly and if I was in a L horse looking forward, someone should be able to draw a straight line down my R side so the line touches just the tips of my toes. If you draw the line straight down your side and the line runs in front of the lead foot but runs OVER the back foot, your back foot might be too far out and you might need to adjust. Ive heard of Jimmy putting the tip of a sword down on the ground and running it down the side of his students so as to make sure the feet were straight or the sword would cut (not really) the back foot, teaching his students to have a proper straight horse stance. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can elaborate on that.  In a full horse, your toes should point straight forward and not turned out, your back straight, your weight centered and your feet shoulder length apart.

Some do their stance a little different than others because of size or physical differences. We have a guy (Jon Van Doran) in our class who does horse stances with crutches!! And Im sure he'll be the first to tell you to do whatever feels comfortable.  But some things have to be there like weight distribution and having your shoulders square, having your leg locked and not lifting your back foot. or it just wont work. Someone should be able to push on you from the front whilst in a half horse and you should be solid.

I hope this makes sense to everyone. If Im wrong or wrote something wrong, please someone correct me. I might write some more later when I have time.

Peace,
D

[Chuck Cory]

Dave you are right about keeping the back leg locked and if you drew a line between the toes of your right and left foot the line should just touch the toes on both feet. Also you should be able to draw a line from the instep of your base foot to the heel of the foot you step out with. You also mentioned that your back should be straight, which is also very important. However you did not mention another very important thing. The hips should be straight so that if you extend both arms in front of you they will be even. This is called a locked horse. If your arms are uneven, your horse stance is not locked nor proper.

Also the 50/50 thing. Let's talk about that. If you are setting your weight 50/50 that means that your center of balance is in the very middle of your stance. (use a plum bob and you will see that)This would mean that you would be able to see your toes looking down with your back straight. This would also mean that your lead leg is vulnerable to attack from the front and your back leg is vulnerable to attack from the back and that any attack from 45 degrees in any direction you would also not be at your strongest both for defense or attack. If we adjust our horse stance to 60/40, we should not be able to see our toes looking down with our back straight. This also means that our stance is stronger to the front or rear depending which side has the 60%. This also enables us to deliver more power with 60% on the lead leg and be able to deliver more power as well in our attack. In the event of an attack from the rear shifting the weight to 60% to the rear enables us to defend or attack with better stability and more force. By shifting the weight to a 60% forward enables us to block with more force and maintain our stability as well as deliver more power in our attack. Also 50/50% places our center of gravity higher thus making our horse stance weaker in either direction and their resulting 45 degrees in each direction from center. In short a half horse is designed to place more weight in the direction of attack to reinforce your defenses as well as your attack force. The Full Horse stance has your weight distribution 50/50 for an attack from the front. but if an attack should come from either side and 45 degrees in any direction from center on either side, your best defense would be a left or right Half Horse Stance. Each stance has a purpose, including the kick stance.

Please bare in mind that the forum is here to help us discuss the subjects with an objective of using the information we receive to our benefit. If one watches the Grandmaster in any demos, you will see what I mean by the 60/40% in the use of the Half Horse for defense and attack. If you look long enough you will see him defend from a Back Stance or reverse Half Horse and you will see the 60/40 there as well. Try it out and you will see the benefits of the 60/40.

[martial_imaging]

I bet we could do some body measurements and come up with a reference for each person.  For instance, let's get a bunch of advanced San Soo guys who have good, strong comfortable horse stances and take some measurements...distance between feet, arm length, leg length, torso length, etc and see if there is some constant ratio we can find in all of the guys.  This could really help us out in the future teaching new students - to give them a starting general rule.  Of course, this would be for our standard, general purpose half horse stance.  Maybe Dave and Kenneth and I can look into this when we get together later this month?

Ron

[kfletcher]

Ron,
That could yield some cool information. We need to look at that.
Kenneth

[Chuck Cory]

Ron, that sounds great! If we could come up with a basis for the lengths that would be useful information.

Chuck

[Dave]

Yeah, the 60/40 makes a lot of sense to me. The more I think about workouts, the more I can see how the 60/40 ratio is applied without anyone thinking about it. It would be impossible to really workout efficiently if your weight was centered. I just never thought of it that way. Good stuff. I was just refering to my memory of being showed a proper horse. When it is showed it is usually You and a new student learning the stance while standing there, so I guess the 50/50 would apply there without sparring with a partner.

Chuck, What about form? I guess the 60/40 is applied there as well to practice maximum power and with transitioning between moves as there is constant shifting of weight and bow stances as well. Makes sense. Of course, you would have to visualize your attacks and defensive blocks and not just doin the form like a robot.

Ron,
Thats a good idea. It would benefit the newer students for sure. Im down to be a part of somethin like that. We're looking forward to comin out man.

Wow, simple topic. Lots of info. Cool stuff.

[Chuck Cory]

Right Dave, if you always do your form as if you were defending and attacking an opponent, you would use the 60/40  Remember when we used to say the form is your text book for fighting. Mistakes in the form will spill over into your workout as well.

Chuck

[Justin]

Interesting topic.  It all comes down to the basics, and perfecting the horse stance is one of the key fundamentals to progressing in the art.  I remember Chuck dropping swords down our front knee to ensure we had it sufficiently bent.  It doesn't take many times of getting your toes banged to learn to bend your knee the right amount!  Coincidentally, you'll find this forces a 60 / 40 weight distribution while leaving you feeling perfectly balanced.

I agree that foot distance is a matter of comfort.  The most common mistake I see with new students is stances that are too deep.  For people with average builds I recommend starting in a full horse with the feet pointing forward such that the instep is approximately in line with the outside of the shoulders.  From there pivot into a half horse and that should be a good starting point for a comfortable stance.

The back foot should be at a 30 - 45 degree angle.  I've seen variations on the front foot from 0 - 45 degrees.  Personally I find that if you draw a perpindicular line through the sternum of someone standing in a locked half horse you'd pretty much find that it connects the big toe on the front foot to the heel on the back foot.  In my class we have interconnecting mats that create lines on the ground.  I have new students practice walking in horses using those lines, which seems to help get the point across.

Perhaps we should formally document these things into a new instructors manual as we go through each topic?

Respectfully,

Justin

[khpro]

Hi - first posting here.  I've been studying under Master Larry Wikel for about half a year, so I'm the newbie here.  Sifu has pointed out to me that in a half horse stance the front and back foot should be parallel, angled and the front knee should be pointing to the little toe.  Anything else I might add would just be saying what's already been said.  No toes seen over the knee in our classes.

Kenny Holloway

[Dave]

Hey Kenny,
Welcome aboard. Im glad to hear that Master Larry has still got some students. I havent really heard much since he closed his school. I used to work out some at his school in smyrna when I got the chance. I always enjoyed it. Your pretty lucky to be working out with Larry. He is a quality instructor. I would love to make it up there again sometime for sure. You guys are always welcome at any of the schools in Nashville as well. Tell Larry I said hello.

Regards,
Dave Van Buren

[khpro]

Dave,
I share the same sentiment with the quality of the instruction.  I was ecstatic to find that there was even a Tsoi Li Ho master in the Nashville area, not to mention one of the old guys that Lau Sifu taught years before he even gave belt rankings.

I thought Larry mentioned a guy from the old Smyrna school coming on on Saturdays.... and I thought he said "Dave".... was that you?

We do Mon. & Wed. evenings @ 6 and Sat at noon.  What school are you working at now?

Kenny

[Dave]

Kenny,
I'll shoot you a private email

Cheers

[San Soo Sifu]

ttt

[Braxus]

I've Been working on my horse stances and was curious about body positioning being squared and upright in the right/left horse positions. What would happen if you were to lean forward slightly into a punch as you dropped into the half horse? Wouldn't keeping your spinal cord straight accomplish a similar objective of being immovable or would it weaken you too much at a disadvantaged position?