The Bow

[khpro]

I'd like to hear the thoughts and input from my senior brothers and sifus in this art on the significance and appropriate times and places for the versions of our formal bow.

Our class is fairly informal and casual in many respects because of its size and location.  Sifu has taught us the formalities he had his former students practice when he had a larger school with a public entrance.  Learning this and thinking of how we use formal bows and partial bows for different occasions aroused my curiosity of how others might be practicing the bow and what understandings others might have that could be shared here.

I will start by saying what we actually practice in our class at Master Larry Wikel's house.  The only time we are expected to bow at all is at the end of our class where we line up facing sifu.  We wait for him to initiate the commencement of the bow then we follow his lead by leaping into the open red flower position with hands pointed down.  This is followed by the same close you would do in form where the left foot is forward and the right fist moves into the left palm, which is then rolled out and drawn back into set position (with feet together, knees bent and fist pulled in at waist).  Again we wait for sifu's lead then we step forward with the left and as the right draws up we do a double crossover down windmill with the palms facing our chest and snap this to fully extended arms at our sides with palms facing down.  At this point the feet are standing together and the knees are not bent.  We hold this until sifu breaks posture to dismiss (which is usually about 2 seconds).

Love to hear from you all.

[martial_imaging]

I like this question and am interested in hearing other responses.  In my history in this art, the formal bow you describe has been reserved for ceremonies, seminars, demonstrations, etc.  Although I recognize that some schools use it much more ubiquitously, that has not been my personal experience.

In my regular workout, I use a truncated informal bow to my partner when beginning and ending the session.  I always place the hands at diaphragm level in this shorter bow to indicate mutual respect for my partner, as a human being, regardless of his/her rank.

In the more formal settings, I place my hands above my head to a highly respected more senior practitioner, but keep them at chest level for the audience and others of equal or lesser experience in the art than myself.  In particular, I always place my hands above my head when offering a formal bow to MY instructor - to signify I hold him in the highest regard.

I avoided using the work rank in most of my post here because of the fact that once Master is achieved, we no longer continue to attain rank, and there can be a great variation in the experience of different "masters".

Ron Bilow
o)

[Dave]

I have been taught that the correct way to bow is how Master Ron described it.  I personally, always bow to a partner during a workout with my left foot forward whether they are a white belt or a Master with the shorter bow that Ron explained. This is just a personal decision of mine. Some will bow to a lower belt with their right foot. I don't feel that its wrong or disrespectful, just not my style. The bow always comes from the heart and never downward. Always from chest level unless I am bowing to my instructors, another Master, especially at ceremonies, or just to someone that I respect which then it would be above the head. The only time I will bow with my right foot is during a demo, during a form or to someone from another art (not out of disrespect, but out of respect for my art). 

Kenny,
I know that bow that you mentioned. I remember from being in Larry's school awhile back. It is done very similar in our schools. The formal bow usually concludes class and the instructor initiates it out of respect for his students and the feeling is certainly mutual.  It is not militant in our classes by any means, but this is something that we always took great pride in, our bow and our respect for each other. So this ritual continues to this day in all of our classes.

I have always been taught to bow with extreme confidence. Never a weak bow, never. A man can tell much about you by the way that you perform your salute. Your bow is just that, your bow and nobody else's.

[kfletcher]

I'd love to be able to respond, but Ron and Dave have summed it up very nicely. Thanks Ron for adressing the hands "placement" for respect for students and teachers. This sometimes gets lost in general conversations. I've also heard of hand placement being indicative of challenges and disrespect in other styles of Kung Fu. Any input anyone? Also how about the different bows in our art e.g. TsoiGa, LiGa, Hoiga etc. Cool topic guys.

Kenneth

[mightywimp]

This is a great topic. When ever I visit another school I always bow with my left foot forward even if I out rank the other person, this is out of respect. Sometime I'll do a show bow, depends on how I feel.  I only go to one "formal class" right now. I'll bow depending on rank and bow left foot forward to Master Sharon Wikel at the end of class . I'm teaching in my backyard a few times a week and we keep things pretty casual. One thing I insist upon is that we bow out when we are finished. After that a handshake and hug.

I hope hope everyone is well!!

Don

[Dave]

s. I've also heard of hand placement being indicative of challenges and disrespect in other styles of Kung Fu. Any input anyone? Also how about the different bows in our art e.g. TsoiGa, LiGa, Hoiga etc.

Yeah, I'd like to hear some input on that one too.  There are most certainly different bows (tsoi, li, hoi) I have been taught different variations and Ive seen them in old videos from the way back machine.  Not really done anymore though. But our bow is actually a very dangerous strike that would take a lot of practice to master. Ive felt the results of it and it's powerful for sure. There are many stories and arguments about this one.

From what Ive been told, bowing was a big deal in China. That was how respect, or lack thereof, was handled. It's certainly a part of this art and all of kung fu for that matter and it's principles should be practiced and honored, at least while your in class.

Heck, when I see some guys that I work out with outside of class, we will bow to each other in public, not because we are lame, but out of respect. People usually look at us weird. Then we laugh about it, shake each others hands, then usually go get some drinks or something

[Jimz]

SALUTE (“Gen Lai”)   Jimmy taught that kung fu salutes had their beginning’s in a time when people used sign language to speak to each other, due to the vastness of dialects in China. The salute was a greeting, and a way to show courtesy and respect to one another, and later, a way to show your affiliation with the Ming dynasty, and its struggle against the Ching empire. However, in its most basic form, the right fist represented “You” as an individual, and the left open palm represented “China”. Thus, “I and China salute you”. Also, the left hand can also signify all the past Masters of Chinese kung fu as well; Thus, “I and all the great master salute you”. Then, during the Ching Dynasty’s (1644 -1911) dictatorship, which Buddhist sects were against, the meaning of the gesture changed. The left palm represented Moon (yat), while the right first represented Sun (yuet), and when the hands were placed together, formed the Chinese character (to those viewing it), “Ming”, the dynasty preceding the Manchu’s (1368-1644). By bringing the hands to the breast bone, represents being against the foreign rulers, while bring the hands to the heart mean your heart and love was for China. Then taking, or rolling the fists back to the sides meant, working together we can restore freedom and the Ming. Now days, bring the hands to the left side of the heart, or straight out to the breast bone (show of confidence) are the salutes use most, but the hand placement most be exact or another Chinese person will not understand exactly what your trying to convey. As Jimmy use to say; “it would be like writing like a little kid.”

     Also during this time, the salute was displayed as a secret gesture to identify and or, show ones loyalty to the former Ming Dynasty by rebel loyalists.

     Lastly, there are 10 or 15 different hand positions that can be used when saluting. There are also other sign language gestures of the Sun and Moon that were used by the Ming “loyalists” other that the bring together of the fist and palm, such as the “sun and moon cross the heavens”, which Jimmy taught. Knowing these old hand signals are a very important part of the art. Many moves found in the form (which originated from sign language), are represented by celestial or heavenly names as well.

Footwork And The Salute

     The footwork in a salute is very important. Jimmy stated that you usually always, salute from a right kick stance, with right fist, left palm, especially at a demo. This shows your prowess, confidence, and that you’re a top of the line fighter. By saluting with your left foot and left fist forward, has two meanings;

   Your either saying your 2nd rate;
   Or your showing enormous respect to someone.

    Hidden Strength Salute: This Salute is executed from your right side and shows disrespect to all that is viewing it and is a direct challenge. Jimmy use to say, in China he would use this to embarrass as wise guy. 
     
Bowing

     When bowing during a salute, always make only a slight nod of the head.

Basic Rules
     
Jimmy said that in China one;

1) Always saluted when greeting or leaving his master to show respect.
2) When you exit or leave the studio showing respect.
3) To class classmates before and after workouts to show respect.


Salute, Jimz.

[kfletcher]

Jimz,
Very nice post.
Thank You,
Kenneth

[JWOLFE]

Jimz,
  Outstanding post, and great to see you posting here on Chuck's site. Keep it up.

Salute from the heart,
Jason Wolfe

[San Soo Sifu]

Master James Benckert has a lot of great information to offer, for those willing to honestly listen.  The great part about Master Jim Benckert is that he offers so much information completely free, both on his web site and his posts on various message boards; and he writes with great depth, not just cursory information.  He often offers great insights into the "higher levels" of Kung-Fu San Soo, that others cry about not receiving from Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo.

[Dave Lorenson]

Master Jim,

Thanks for the excellent post!

My research has brought me to similar conclusions, but it is so refreshing to have it from the Grandmaster as well!

What I didn't know is the different hand positions - up to 15 - this is very interesting.

Again, thank you for posting some real quality information!

With Respect,

Dave Lorenson

[Jimz]

Thanks for all the kind remarks, I really appreciate them  . As far as the different hand positions, the hands can be placed at different points around or on the body to convey particular means as in the example of the left fist and right palm at the liver. There are also twin open handed salutes that are strictly religious in nature. Jimmy taught all these things. However, when I say he taught them, I mean he showed them in lessons or forms, but did not necessarily explain them in depth... To get the bigger picture or meaning behind things Jimmy taught, you had to catch him by himself, or with only one or two other students. Also, many students were not interested in the mechanics, or the history of the art, most just wanted the lesson and to workout, and that is why, in my opinion, there are so many gaps in the art.

   Salute, Jimz.

[San Soo Sifu]

Master Jim Benckert,
I wanted to ask you a very serious question about the Salute, if I may.

In your opinion, do you honestly feel that the Formal Salute (Full Bow): for belt promotions, public demonstrations & expositions; and showing respect to each individual's personal instructor (studio owner), and of course paying our respects to Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo...

and the Informal Salute (Respect Bow): to show respect to our workout partners, and to let each other know that we are ready for "anything" during our workout...

is really all we (Kung-Fu San Soo practitioners) need to know to carry this Art forward into the future, and is enough "Chinese tradition" to carry on, in Jimmy H. Woo's memory???

Or, do you believe that more of the types of Salutes (Bows) that you listed are important to know?  Also, if you do feel that way, can you please explain your thought process behind WHY it would be important to know more.  (This is not a "set up" question, it is a sincere question.  The late Master Al Rubin made sure that his students understood the two main Salutes that we do in San Soo.)

[Jimz]

Well, with all due respect, and not to say there is not a Formal Full Bow, but I have never heard of it… but there is plenty of things I’ve not heard of. What I do know for sure, is what Jimmy told me. That is, when you bow, you always lean forward making only a slightly ¼ bow, nodding the head, and you never drop your head below your upper breast bone. This is done for several reasons, but the chief among them is, so that you can always see your opponent, and or those your paying respect to. If you make a full bow, not only will you lose sight of those your paying respect to and your surrounds, but leave yourself vulnerability to someone you may not trust, putting yourself in a position of jeopardy. And according to what Jimmy told me, you never make a full bow.

  Jimmy always taught me, if I really want to show the utmost respect then,

1. Make a ¼ bow with your hand salute at your upper forehead/hairline (Salute Of Deep Or Great Respect).
2. This is the way I use to salute him when I got my belts and degree’s. It was a very formal salute.
3. Then I would right and left down windmill bring my hands down to the middle of my breast bone area, followed by a fanning motion of my salute from left to right, at chest level, and bring my hands either back to center (breast bone), or to my heart.
5. Salute Jimmy again and hold. Once he nodded or saluted me, then roll my hands back to my sides/hips.

   This is what Jimmy himself told me to do when I came up for my belts, and for the following reasons;

1. Your are paying respect to everyone at once.
2. Your paying extreme, or the highest respect to your master first (this is the equivalent to a Full bow).
3. Bring your hands down to breast bone and fanning, your showing respect to all those in the room or wherever you happen to be, plus all living and dead masters, as well as, living students above and below you in the art.

Bowing: Jimmy mentioned many times, that the protocol in China is different than in Japan. Deep bows seen in Japan and are not used in China. On the mainland, the position of your hands express your feelings, not the depth of the bow (at least in kung fu). That is why you have so many different placements of the hands.

   As for just knowing all the additional bows and or salutes, I will tell you exactly what Jimmy told me; “if you do not know or understand all the sign language of the art, then pretty soon, no more art.” See, as I mentioned, all those hand positions have meaning, and refer directly back to the origins of the art, and or its revolutionary ties. To leave them out, would be like leaving out words or letters of a sentence. Only part of the meaning will be conveyed, then over time, no one would understand them, and it will be gone forever. 

   It even happening to Jimmy. He told me many times how he could not even read certain parts of the old fighting manuals, and had to hire a professor of old Chinese languages to read them to him. So, it is very important to know and pass down these things before they disappear.

   As far as Al Rubin, Al and I use to workout together at Jimmy’s on Saturday afternoons, and I use to workout out at his studio in Riverside in the afternoon during the week days as well. I was with him the Saturday night before he passed away, he had been complaining to me for several months about not feeling well. He was a great guy.

    Jimz.

[San Soo Sifu]

Dear Master Jim,
First, thank you for answering my post (question).

Second, I think really, it is just a matter of semantics.

To be perfectly honest with you; I, also, had never heard the salute refered to a bow before.  As I have read, and kept up, with the gentlemen who post here regularly from the Master Chuck Cory lineage, I started reading the terms, "Full Bow" and "Respect Bow."

I had seen it before a while back on Master Andre Salvage's web site.  Of course, he comes from the Chuck Cory lineage as well.  So, it makes perfect sense that he would use the same terms as his training brothers (and sisters) from both Michigan and Tennessee.

I think I described both salutes (bows) pretty accurately, in the short amount of words I used (I am lazy, and like to type things out quickly; just spell checking when necessary).

My words from above...

Formal Salute (Full Bow): for belt promotions, public demonstrations & expositions; and showing respect to each individual's personal instructor (studio owner), and of course paying our respects to Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo.

Informal Salute (Respect Bow): to show respect to our workout partners, and to let each other know that we are ready for "anything" during our workout.

As I said before, I think it is just a matter of semantics. I also agree with you, we need to pass along as much as we know to the next generation, and try not to leave anything out; if we truly want this art to survive. I also think we need to try and understand the "language" of our fellow San Soo brothers and sisters, to be on the same sheet of music, so to speak; if we want this art to survive. Just my considered opinion.