LONG-ARM ATTACKS

[Jimz]

First Strike Long Arm Theories

The key to successfully attacking an opponents is not to do anything that looks unnatural. Thus, to executed a “First Strike Surprise Attack”, from, or out of, a “Natural Standing (stationary) Position”, then a long-arm hand technique is your best choice.

This occurs for three main reason:

1. Long-arm hand blows allow you to launch your hand strike as you step without having to execute a windmill, or cock the strike hand first.

2. This type of hand motion looks so natural to an opponent, that his mind does not perceive it as a threat.

3. When the hands are used in this way (long-arm), the striking weapon is thrown into the target by way of the non strike hands pulling momentum, much like a sling shot, giving you extreme power.

Long-Arm Grammar

Every hand and foot techniques has a whole and complete set of rules and regulations that go with it, which must be followed. Long-arm blows are no exemption, and can only be used at certain times, and under certain conditions. Not knowing these condition can make the difference between winning and losing. You cannot just use a particular type of Long, Middle, or Short arm blow because you like it, or think it will work. You must know its grammar.

Salute, Jimz.

[martial_imaging]

No disrespect intended, but...

"The key to successfully attacking...a long-arm hand technique is your best choice."

is not the best advice in my opinion. Every situation is different and there are many ways to launch an attack - the "best one" being the one that happens to work in the situation you are in.  Sometimes that's a kick to the shin, sometimes it's picking up an object and throwing it at the other person.  There are so many factors to consider in any setting it's ridiculous to start enumerating them here.

Ron Bilow

[Jimz]

Dear Mr. Bilows

Well no disrespect taken, however, you don’t know understand the workings of an attack, or a persons natural body reactions, or you wouldn’t be saying what you did. The things I have put forth here are not my idea’s, not some thing I made up, or thought would work, they are from Jimmy’s book, from his mouth. For you to weight in on this subject in such a manner only shows me your lack of understand in this area.

If you read what I wrote, you would see I said, from a “natural standing stationary position”. That means, you are not moving, you are standing in place.

With that being said, if you are in this position, and facing someone, and then try to cock your arm, windmill, throw some thing, or move in anyway (outside of natural motions), you will set off your opponent’s natural reactions and he will either move, or strike you first. Its that simple. You cannot do the things that your saying from a stationary position without cutting down your chances of success to less than 50%. Try it.
You have to know, a persons natural body reactions, and what will work and not work under certain conditions, if you don’t know, your going to get hurt.

So, yes you do have to enumerate them, that is what makes the art work, and if you can’t, you don’t know the art. As I explained at the end of my other piece, everything has its own grammar, its own particular rules. Just like in math and English. Everything that is scientific enumerates and assigns values and counts one by one. That is what makes this art a science.

[Dave]

 however, you don’t know understand the workings of an attack, or a persons natural body reactions, or you wouldn’t be saying what you did.

 For you to weight in on this subject in such a manner only shows me your lack of understand in this area.

So, yes you do have to enumerate them, that is what makes the art work, and if you can’t, you don’t know the art.

Master Ron Bilow Knows exactly what he his talking about. Trust me.

[Jimz]

Hey Dave,

At what distances certain strikes can be used and not used at, and what body reactions follow, is a precise science. Yes, there are many ways to launch an attack, but not the way that suits you personally... it has to follow the rules that go with it. Just like, I can put my finger in cold water, luke warm, warm, hot maybe, but if I put it in scolling hot there's going to be trouble. Its just like if I do certain hand strikes, kicks and leverages at particular angles, it will rip out the muscles and tendons in my hips. In the studio, even if you don't know which techniques will do this, they will still work find, but on the street, you will end up in the hospital, worse off than your opponent.

 Back to arm blows. There are three types of arm blows, long, middle and short. Each one can only be used under certain condition, distances and angles of attack. Its like writing, you can't just place your letters anywhere you like. Its the same with attacking a person, you can't just do anything you like, you have to know a persons natural body reactions under all conditions and distances. You can't say, Oh, I like this, so I'm going to do this.

Jimz.

[San Soo Sifu]

Wow! I didn't think I would be responding to this thread, but here it goes...

I like to call Ron Bilow... Master Doctor Ron Bilow.

I use this title because of something I once heard on a talk show.  The guest was a pastor, priest, bishop, friar, whatever... had his own congregation.  This person also had a PhD in Theology (the study of religions).  So, this individual was referred to as... Reverend Doctor So-and-so.

Ron Bilow is not only a Master of Kung-Fu San Soo under Master Chuck Cory.  Oh wait, as is pointed out before, on another web site.... Advance Master Chuck Cory.

Ron Bilow is a Medical Doctor (MD).  You know, a real doctor.  He had to study his butt off to reach that level in life.

Ron Bilow has had extensive radiology training.  You know, to read x-rays, and give professional medical opinions and advice based upon his observations.

Ron Bilow works in a trauma level hospital in the Emergency Department. I think Master Doctor Ron Bilow is the living example of a second generation master exceeding past his first generation master.  And, that is meant as the highest compliment to Master Chuck Cory.  After all, don't we want all of our students to be better than us? Also, either you believe that the future is getting bleaker, or growing brighter.

I choose to believe that the future is growing brighter.

[mightywimp]

I have known Master Ron Bilow for many years. Besides being a very good friend and mentor he is an excellent radiologist and San Soo Master. I very much agree with the statements from Dave and San Soo Sifu.

Jimz, I do not want to show any disrespect, but can you please let us know your backround and were your specific reading/hearing of what Jimmy stated came from.

Thank you,

Don Nored
5th Degree Black Belt
under Master Chuck Cory

[martial_imaging]

Well, thanks guys for chiming in.

I'd first like to say, that Master Chuck Cory is definitely still a much, much better fighter than I.  I continue to learn from him, every time I see him.

Master Jim...please forgive me...I did not realize you meant standing directly in front of your opponent, perfectly squared off on a mat, with no obstacles between you, without any witnesses around, not facing you're unfortunately over-drunk belligerent brother-in-law, and at the perfect distance for a long-arm strike, not close enough to stomp on his foot, or deliver a knee, not so far you need to cover ground before striking.  My mistake.  I assumed (ah, there was my real mistake I guess) you were referring to a "street" altercation with too many variables to enumerate.  Yes, I still believe too many to enumerate.  I'll use a famous quote here - "a picture paints a thousand words.  I don't think this thread is close to a thousand yet.

Having said that.  Seeing as how you don't know me from Adam, you really have no idea what I do or don't understand about fighting, teaching San Soo, or the human body in general.  I guess the others have told you a little though.

Ron

[sansooman]

Well I am not sure but most street fights do not have rules or there lack of any.  Would you be kind enough to break down the complete set of rules for hand and foot techniques?  Also with striking are these rules to go with the knee, forearm, elbow and head?  We are taught to be natural and not to show what we know until it is the proper time.  Surprise should always come from us and not the opponent or adversary with a poor disposition that needs adjusting.

Ron Bilow surely knows his techniques and striking, he is very, very good at it.  Ron being a doctor gives him more of advantage than most, for he knows where to lay the hit, compress the area.  Besides Master Ron Bilow is one heck of a nice guy who loves the Fu and has put it to use.

Jeff
Instructor San Soo Michigan
One of Chucks.
5thdegree
Working towards Enlightment

First Strike Long Arm Theories

The key to successfully attacking an opponents is not to do anything that looks unnatural. Thus, to executed a “First Strike Surprise Attack”, from, or out of, a “Natural Standing (stationary) Position”, then a long-arm hand technique is your best choice.

This occurs for three main reason:

1. Long-arm hand blows allow you to launch your hand strike as you step without having to execute a windmill, or cock the strike hand first.

2. This type of hand motion looks so natural to an opponent, that his mind does not perceive it as a threat.

3. When the hands are used in this way (long-arm), the striking weapon is thrown into the target by way of the non strike hands pulling momentum, much like a sling shot, giving you extreme power.

Long-Arm Grammar

Every hand and foot techniques has a whole and complete set of rules and regulations that go with it, which must be followed. Long-arm blows are no exemption, and can only be used at certain times, and under certain conditions. Not knowing these condition can make the difference between winning and losing. You cannot just use a particular type of Long, Middle, or Short arm blow because you like it, or think it will work. You must know its grammar.

Salute, Jimz.

[kfletcher]

This got intense fast. I've re-read the posts to make sure I understand what was being discussed. I think perhaps it is a misunderstanding. I wouldn't dispute the effectiveness of the strike, described, under specific circumstances as stated. I think Ron was looking at the "larger picture" with numerous variables and unpredictability. Having said that, I think you would like him and his fighting style Master Benckert. He is a no-nonsense fighter with an exceptional skill set. I consider myself to be quite fortunate to call him a friend, mentor and teacher. I have learned a great deal from him.
Having said that, thank you for the post. It stimulated me to look up the traditional definitions of "long arm strikes" and their meaning in the martial arts world. I noticed Choy Li Fut was classified as a "long arm system" where I looked.
SSS, I have to agree about Ron being a fine example of a 2nd generation Master. He is an upper tier Master in any "generation" including 1st in my mind. I also want to state he is a excellent role model for all up and coming students. He demonstrates how "we are family" in Chuck's line and just doesn't say it. I also have to agree with him, if we listen carefully, we can all learn from Chuck. It's very seldom you see a fighter/teacher of his abilities that will help others. Ron is a fine example of how things can be passed to the next generation.
Kenneth Fletcher

[Dave Lorenson]

Hi Friends,

Interesting discussion.  One of my favorite forms from Sifu David A. Simons has an excellent combination of long arm attacks.

Now, I would like to throw this thought out for discussion with regard to the statement from Master Jim Benkert that one must know the "grammer" of the art and that the rules and regulations of each particular strike must be followed.

Let me start with this...I have it on good authority that our Grandmaster stated on more than one occasion that fighting is, "Like music."  It has cadence, it has rhythm.  It most certainly has rules and regulations that must be adhered to:  except, and here is my point:

When well understood certain rules can be altered or discarded all together, depending on the experience of the artist and the many variables of the situation. 

Leopold Auer was a fantastic teacher of violin theory and practice.  Many famous virtuoso violinists were among his pupils, including Mischa Elman, Jascha Heifetz, Nathan Milstein, Efrem Zimbalist, Georges Boulanger, Benno Rabinof, Kathleen Parlow, Oscar Shumsky, and Shinichi Suzuki. Auer also taught the young Clara Rockmore, who later became one of the world's foremost exponents of the theremin.  There were also other world class musicians who trained at his hand.  The point of the preceding list is this - each one was strictly taught the rules and regulations of music and were held to the very highest standard and yet...not a single one followed all of the rules the same way.  Any musician can easily tell the touch of a master, as can the general public and yet...each master is different.

If Kung Fu San Soo is both an art and a science, which I believe it to be, then the above would also apply to this system.

To conclude my thoughts on this I humbly leave you with the following.  In order to think outside or perform outside the box, one must first learn the confines of the box and all of it's particulars.  Then one can perform or think outside of that box, all the while building upon the structure of the box. 

I think you will find my statements in line with both Masters though, on the surface, it appears that their statements are at odds with each other.  Master Benkert's point of the necessity of rules is vital and...Master Bilow's implication that there are so many variables that one cannot necessarily follow strict rules...seem to me to both be correct.  The difference then is understanding and experience.

With Respect,

Dave Lorenson

Live Free   Train Hard   Finish Well

[San Soo Sifu]

David Lorenson,
I think most of us here were responding to James Benckert's ad hominem argument against Master Doctor Ron Bilow.  (Please read definition below):

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man" or "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument, the content of the discussion or producing any evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject to a personal attack.

The following are excerpts from James Benckert's post...

Dear Mr. Bilows

Well no disrespect taken, however, you don’t know understand the workings of an attack, or a persons natural body reactions, or you wouldn’t be saying what you did. ...

...For you to weight in on this subject in such a manner only shows me your lack of understand in this area. ...

...You have to know, a persons natural body reactions, and what will work and not work under certain conditions, if you don’t know, your going to get hurt.

So, yes you do have to enumerate them, that is what makes the art work, and if you can’t, you don’t know the art.

Those of us responding where just attempting to "enlighten" James Benckert as to his logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem.

[Dave Lorenson]

Jon,

Yes, most of you were responding as you stated and I concur.  However, I decided to respond to another point, since it was well established that Master Bilow does, indeed know whereof he speaks and the argument you mentioned took a wrong turn.

Since the point was made, and as my prerogative as a member of this board, I decided to address that point for further exploration.

Thank you for your attempt to "enlighten" me.

Dave

[San Soo Sifu]

Thank you for your attempt to "enlighten" me.

So, to sum up your point that you were making in your first post within this thread was/is...

One needs to "know the box" before one can "think outside the box."

Now as my prerogative as a member of this board, it is my turn to thank you for your attempt to "enlighten" the rest of us here. Thank you so very much!

[Jimz]

Well first, I like to thank everyone that has participated in this discussion, it was a very good thing to see such interest in what I posted, all the questions, and all the comments. Dissecting and questioning San Soo theories is a good thing. With that being said, let me address a few questions directed at me.

Years With Jimmy: I was with Jimmy about 23 years.

Long Arm Rules: Let me explain this a little bit more in detail.

Natural Stepping And Arm Swing Attacks

     As I mentioned before; “The key to successfully attacking an opponents is not to do anything that looks unnatural.” For instances, as the left foot steps forward, the right hand naturally swings forward and the left hand naturally swings to the rear, and visa versa. And as I explained, “This long-arm swing motion looks so natural to a person or opponent, that there mind does not perceive it as a threat”, and will not try to terminate, deflect or avoid a blow launched out of this motion until it is to late (at the very last second), and even then, the opponent will react very slowly to it because the mind is uncertain if it is an act of aggression. Because of this lapse in reaction time in an opponent, it causes your blow to become completely unstoppable.

What Does This Mean

It means, it allows you to be able to shoot (thrust) your natural swing hand or leg into the target without setting off a persons natural defensive alarms. If a “natural body motion attack” is launched inside the opponent surprise gap, then it has a 99.9% chance of reaching the target completely unhindered.
However, like I mentioned, long arm blows can only be used under certain conditions, so please, do not interpret this in anyway as if you can fire off a series of long arm blows just because you fell like it.

Remember, you have the 26 letter alphabet. You can use those letters anyway you like, So Long as the words your making, make sense. I can’t write Jim, mij, if I do, no one will know what I trying to say.

If I missed anything please let me know.

On a different subject, I talked to Ron Gatewood a few days ago, and he is doing well after his heart surgery. Get well soon Ron.

Thank You, Jimz.